# Do members of the same species often fight to the death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618 "2006-03-16T17:09:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618/21 "2006-03-16T22:57:14Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > That’s a very good point. So I can reasonably tell students that in the wild, most dog fights will: > a) be dominance fights between members of the same pack; these fights should generally end quickly and without serious injury to either member, with one dog adopting a submissive pose; or > b) be territory fights between two strange dogs; these fights are more vicious, but will generally end with one dog running away. > > Dogfighters breed dogs, torture dogs, and restrict fighting space to prevent either of these things from occurring. > > Hows that? > Daniel Yes, especially if we’re talking about one-on-one dog fights. I’m kinda guessing here, but I suspect that dogs/wolves being pack animals would rarely be involved in such a one-on-one inter-pack fight. More likely it would be many-on-one or many-on-many. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618/22 "2006-03-16T23:25:00Z")
> [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > Just another voice to echo what **John Mace** said. > > The Common Chimp, _Pan troglodytes_ (our arguably closest “relative”), engages in warfare, where males will kill males of another troop. > > However, from what I can remember, _Pan paniscus_ (Bonobos - the other major contentder for “next of kin”) resolve their disputes with love not war. 😃 > > Time for a new slogan: > > “Be like the Bonobos. > Fuck, don’t fight!” > > 😃😃 Not quite. You’re comparing the inter-troop behavior of chimps with the intra-troop behavior of bonobos. If I had one of Frans de Waal’s books handy (which I don’t) I’d try and find out what inter-troop behavior is like for bonobos-- I don’t reacll off the top of my head. And keep in mind that we don’t really know if the killing of out-troop males by chimps is especially common or not. Nonetheless, bonobo society is generally much more peaceful than chimp society, although that can be manipualted, too, by things like space constraint or food shortages. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618/23 "2006-03-16T23:39:12Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > a) be dominance fights between members of the same pack; these fights should generally end quickly and without serious injury to either member, with one dog adopting a submissive pose; or > b) be territory fights between two strange dogs; these fights are more vicious, but will generally end with one dog running away. In fact, both of those (especially the second one) are often fatal. Just not right away. The wounds often develop infections, which eventually cause death. Or they weaken the fighters enough that they succumb to something else. Like you said, sometimes _both_ the winner & loser in the fight die later from infections in their wounds. But even a small bite can become infected, and animals aren’t smart enough to foresee that possibility. (Heck, it took humans thousands of years to understand it.) But you may not want to say this, because it rather undercuts your claim that ‘fighting is unnatural’. As a long-term humane society member, and growing up on a farm that served as a boarding facility for seized animals, I certainly agree with your opposition to staged dogfighting. But if I were you, I’d drop the whole natural/unnatural argument. The whole idea of natural/unnatural is rather vague and unscientific. People used to claim that it was natural for blacks to be not as intellegent as whites. That it was natural for women to be hysterical, to be unable to serve in the armed forces, to be unable to think ‘logically’ enough to vote or to work outside the home, etc. People used to argue that being gay was ‘unnatural’ and a choice, until recent scientific work on ‘gay genes’ and biological diversity that undercuts that. (Some still do, just ignoring all that.) When she was young, my mother was told that it was ‘unnatural’ for a girl to wear riding pants; they should wear a skirt and ride sidesaddle. Arguing about what is ‘natural’ just opens a can of worms. I just make your argument flat-out on morality: it is cruel to force dogs to fight solely for our amusement, the people involved mistreat and neglect their dogs, and so forth. There are plenty of arguments against dogfighting without getting into natural/unnatural. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618/24 "2006-03-17T00:32:40Z")
> [@cormac262](#): > > I think the female praying mantis not only killing, but devouring the male after mating kind of disproves that “survive to reproduce” theory. She doesn’t eat him after. She eats him _during_ mating. She starts at the head and works her way down. The male’s decapitated body continues to copulate. By providing a high protein meal, the male greatly increases the chances that the female will live long enough to bear his young. He dies. But, his genes are passed on to the next generation. This same strategy is seen in black widow males. The males of various bee species will snap off their penis inside the queen. The male bleeds to death. But, his severed penis prevents any other male from mating with the queen. Back To The OP I say forget about wolves. Whether wolves and dogs are different species, different subspecies, etc is a GD thread. But, they are different. What do average dogs, ones not specifically trained to fight, do when put in a small enclosure with a strange dog? What kind of training and conditioning is necessary to get dogs to fight this way? If fighting to the death is natural for dogs, why is all the training needed? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618/25 "2006-03-17T15:02:25Z")
European Robins are notorious for this, particulalry the males, and fights between them account for the majority of mature male deaths of the species. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfacts/factfiles/253.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfacts/factfiles/253.shtml) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Robin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Robin) Both these sites place a fairly low emphasis on the aggressiveness of male Robins, if you have one claiming your garden as territory and you put up a small stuffed toy resembling a robin, it will be attacked in short order. [http://www.badboybirding.com/EURO\_12222003.htm](http://www.badboybirding.com/EURO_12222003.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-members-of-the-same-species-often-fight-to-the-death/348618.md?page=1)