# Do men really desire smart women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 19, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573 "2002-04-19T20:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/81 "2002-04-21T08:14:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nacho4Sara \* > I said something along the lines of, “I really wish the US would forgive Africa’s debt so they can focus their economy on building an infrastructure to treat AIDS patients.” But that answer is oh so _stock_, which isn’t anything indicative of intelligence. Compassion, sure. A knowledge of world events, yes. Intelligence? Iffy. It doesn’t take more intelligence to throw out an answer like that than a habit of reading newspapers daily. [/threadjack] ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/82 "2002-04-21T10:30:37Z")
There is a difference between being smart and being intellectual. “smart” is a statement about your brain, “intellectual” is a statement about your personality. I think that some men will be turned off by smart women, due to their own insecurities. Far more men, however, will be turned off by intellectual women. Intellectual people want to have deep conversations about world events, philosophy, blah blah blah. People who are not intellectual will feel either bored or inferior. Are you constantly driving conversation towards intellectual subjects? Me personally, as long as you’re not a total bubblehead, I’m not too worried about smarts, I find that most people are smart enough to hold their end of a conversation. Intellectuality, OTOH, I can only deal with so much of. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/83 "2002-04-21T11:28:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **(Urban Ranger)** But that answer is oh so _stock_ Stock for who, exactly? The way things are, a lot of people are lucky if they can find Earth on a globe. Simply being aware of the closely-tied problems of third-world debt and grossly insufficient health-care infrastructure, even as expressed in that oversimplified analysis, is still pretty far ahead of the curve. I can see “stock” if you’re talking about, say, regular listeners of NPR (or, alternatively, SDMB members), but as far as the general population goes, even that degree of understanding is pretty rare. And maybe that’s something to consider for the overall topic: How exactly is “smart” defined (the various objections above to book-learnin’ as a criterion show the difficulty of this), and perhaps more importantly in comparison to whom? ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/84 "2002-04-21T11:52:25Z")
Hell, yes. Intelligent women all the way. Especially if a) they’re knowledgeable in spheres I’m not and b) they don’t call me out for not using complete sentences. I’ve dated women who either weren’t particularly intellectual or who weren’t secure enough to let their intellect show. I don’t like the feeling that I’m carrying an entire conversation. People say communication is key in a relationship. I think intellect feeds communication, so yeah smart chicks rule. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/85 "2002-04-21T13:52:16Z")
I just don’t know. I read all these words about how intelligence sooo attractive, but I know a lot of smart people and a lot of not-so-smart people. Seems the smart and physically unattractive ones spend lot of time alone(but not by choice). Not so with the not-so-smart and physically beautiful. I doubt that intelligence is the determining factor… Maybe I just hang around a lower class of folks. I’m sure wit and intelligence can make someone more attractive, but… ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/86 "2002-04-21T14:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Do you mean to say that there are people out there who proclaim, “I’m proud to say I don’t read books. I get all of the information I need offa the TEE-vee.”? \*\* While I wouldn’t suggest that this is a good way to go about being “smart”, I would suggest that not all smart people like to read. My brother-in-law is _very_ intelligent and he (sometimes proudly) claims he hasn’t read a book since he finished college 12 years ago. He has a degree from one of the top five engineering schools in the US and runs a very successful company that he co-founded. So, while the statisitics are probably with you to assume that not reading=stupid, it isn’t always the case. ---
**Author:** ![Nacho4Sara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Nacho4Sara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nacho4Sara)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/87 "2002-04-21T17:29:39Z")
> [@](#): > > But that answer is oh so stock, which isn’t anything indicative of intelligence. Compassion, sure. A knowledge of world events, yes. Intelligence? Iffy. It doesn’t take more intelligence to throw out an answer like that than a habit of reading newspapers daily. Would you like me to e-mail you my 15-page research/proposal paper on what needs to be done in Africa to solve the AIDS problem? It was titled “Holocaust Against the Poor” (not my phrase, sadly). I wrote it for my Contemporary African Politics class a few weeks ago. Would that make me smart? I got an A. And (slight hijack) if so many people are thinking about and reading about the problem so as to make my consideration of it “stock”, why isn’t anything being done to solve it? Why is everyone so willing to turn a blind eye to the marginalized peoples suffering the most? I was the one who through out the comment about books; I don’t like to date men who don’t read. I like to read good books, and I like to talk about them with the men I date. I have many friends who I consider intelligent, who don’t read. I’ve got nothing against that, but if I’m going to be with someone for a long time, I want to have that in common. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/88 "2002-04-21T20:47:57Z")
As others have said here, there are different kinds of “smart”. I’d rather be around someone who is engaging and interesting, full of hobbies, interests, but with “average” intelligence, than with a super “intelligent” person who is boring as dry toast. Though, in my opinion, intelligence often is accompanied by intense curiosity, excitement, engagement about many things. A stupid or dull-witted person _might_ be more apt to be satisfied with watching Jerry Springer all day, after they put in their time at their job. A smart person _might_ be more apt spend their free time pursuing many interests, and hobbies. Though - there are no hard-and-fast rules to this. I know some “smart” people who are too uptight, proud or boring to get out there and learn new things, and therefore, they are dull. And I know some “average” people who are fun to be around, because they have many things to talk about, and they are willing to learn something new. If a guy doesn’t want to hear about my interests (at least a little) he is not worth my time. It’s not about how _smart_ I am. (I’m no genius, but I’m above average.) It’s about how I impliment the smarts I have. And, same goes for a guy - if he is a genius, but doesn’t do anything with it, who cares? Better to be of average intelligence, but full of curiosity and hobbies and interests! As others have already pointed out, it isn’t so much about raw intelligence anyway, it’s about personality. Sometimes, you can’t tell how smart a person is, really. They are so fun and interesting - who cares how they do on an IQ test? One of my best friends is smart - I guess. I mean, I don’t know what he got on his SATs, or anything. For all I know, he is barely average. But he’s such a cool guy, who cares? He’s obviously smart enough to do what he wants to do in life. Compare him to another one of my friends, who I _know_ is smart (because she won’t let anyone forget it). She’s nice, and all, but she’s got some weird screwed-up uptight ideas, so she isn’t always so fun to be around. ---
**Author:** ![Neil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/839c29/32.png) [@Neil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neil)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/89 "2002-04-21T23:30:52Z")
Well, if you’re in college, the intellectual guys who may be more interested in intellectual gals are probably holed up in their dorm rooms studying engineering or something, and like myself, may be too dorky to go to parties or pick up girls. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/90 "2002-04-22T00:00:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neil \* > \*\*Well, if you’re in college, the intellectual guys who may be more interested in intellectual gals are probably holed up in their dorm rooms studying engineering or something, and like myself, may be too dorky to go to parties or pick up girls. 🙂 \*\* Have we met? You just described me perfectly (except for the engineering part.) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/91 "2002-04-22T00:48:47Z")
Well, where are you? I cannot enter a male’s dorm, so you where do I find you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brainychick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@brainychick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainychick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/92 "2002-04-22T14:21:36Z")
Well, this has been interesting. I’ve learned a lot, got a lot of thoughtful responses from thoughful people, and that’s always great. Truthfully, though, I’m not terribly worried about dating. I don’t wish to “dumb down,” and am too stubborn to do so. Honestly, I want to be wanted as I am, and have to audacity (and perhaps the arrogance) to be unwilling to be something I’m not. Yet I am always looking to grow as a human, so that means constantly re-evaluating myself and my interactions with others, and finding ways to improve. And I’m always looking for new experiences, as I have an almost neurotic fear of being too narrow a person. I have no problem asking men out, and I do so often, although most of them turn me down. That’s just how it goes. Guys have had to deal with this kind of rejection for thousands of years and the human race is no worse for wear, so I’ll probably be fine. Thanks for the thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/93 "2002-04-22T15:42:22Z")
In response to **Whistlepig** , **Shrew** , and **DanielWithrow** : 1. Well said, and understandable, and a great read (and a hearty AMEN about grad students)! 😃 But again, I think there’s a difference between being smart and being nitpicky. That said, I have to tell you that the one thing I’ve hated about dating certain booksmart MEN is that they lecture. And lecture. And lecture. Especially if they’re teachers of any sort (in which case they often enjoy making dates into Quiz Bowls, too!). And I HATE THAT. It’s just a goddamn TOM AND JERRY episode, for cryin’ out loud! Shut your mouth, drink your beer, and save your pedantry for the people who are paying to hear this shit! I gotta say, I had a much better time with my high school dropout ex than my college professor ex. Both of them taught me things I didn’t know previously. Both were fun, smart, and entertaining. But the high school dropout didn’t lecture me, and as an added bonus, just complimented my “smarts” instead of making everything into a Hi-Q competition. (Later, when the Dropout and I had amicably parted ways and I begain dating Professor Boy, I commented over friendly cocktails with Dropout that Professor Boy was nice and all, but that he NEVER STOPPED TEACHING and therefore seemed incapable of engaging in a normal, two-way conversation with me. Dropout gave me a quizzical look and asked, “What could he possibly teach YOU? You’ve got a Master’s degree.” Honey, I dropped trou right then and did him under the table. Juuuuuuuuust kidding! :D) 1. For this reason, I have never quite understood women (speaking from a hetero girl POV) who are enthralled by such pedantic shmoes. My coworker used to come gushing into my office about this guy she met on the internet… Every one of his emails sent her running for the dictionary, and occasionally he’d give her pop Geography quizzes. Sounded like an asshole to ME, but she ATE IT UP, and bragged about how a “smart” guy like this was EXACTLY what she needed! Honey, if 17-letter words and pop-quizzes are what make you feel like a woman, who am I to say boo, but it just seems to me like a relationship shouldn’t involve an Entrance Exam. 2. I, too, find the concept of “dating down” (or “up”) deplorable. I mean, I suppose it’s true that sometimes people scratch their heads over certain pairings due to a difference in educational attainment, IQ, income level, “career” choice, or what have you… But overall, I hate the implication that one person is somehow inferior to the other based on these factors. I think if a lot of “smart” people would stop being so damn masturbatory about their “intellect”, they could learn a thing or two from just about anybody. I think it’s perfectly permissible to have certain criteria for a partner (i.e. **Nacho4Sara’s** insistence on the fella having read more than Maxim in the last month), but as someone (sorry, forgot your name), equating, say, a Ph.D. (or, in Dropout’s case, a Master’s Degree) with intelligence can be a bad idea… ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/94 "2002-04-22T16:38:54Z")
I’m not intelligence prejudiced. If a woman has brains fine, if not, fine too. “One thing I’ve noticed is that people seem to associate “smart” with “neurotic”. Has anyone else seen this?” A lot of insane people are very intelligent. This is because they have enough brain power to create their own universe, which is cool. On intelligence tests they can often get a perfect straight line, this is because they can figure out the test & know how to do it. I wouldn’t call them a ‘chick’ to their face, though. I like women who are nuts, they are interesting. ---
**Author:** ![kumaraka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e68b1a/32.png) [@kumaraka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kumaraka)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/95 "2002-04-22T17:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manda JO \* > \*\* > > 1. Some people are just easier matches. Now then, it’s tempting to be smug here and say that the people who are easier matches are “simple” or “average” or something, but that’s missing the point. Being a “difficult” match dosen’t make you more unique or anything, it just means you’re a diffucult match, and the total size of the set of people you could work with is smaller, and the odds of metting them also smaller. > \*\* This is a wise response. Personally, I’m very VERY attracted to smart women, but only if they aren’t so small minded as to believe the only thing worthwhile is intelligence. Smart women tend to be attracted to me for whatever little intelligence I have, and this gets on my nerves. It highlights the conditional nature of relationships- as if I’m only going to be worthwhile to the girl so long as I babble pretentiously at every opportunity. No, I’d rather have a smart girl who realizes that it’s not about intelligence, it’s about finding someone who actually gives a shit about you. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/96 "2002-04-22T18:36:27Z")
Actually, _brains_ are secondary. If I’m _forced_ to make a choice between a good personality and high intelligence, I’ll take personality. I’d far rather spend time around a woman that’s pleasant to be with, than one that’s unpleasant but smart. Personality Brains Looks In that order. My _preference_ wouild be Nice, Smart, _and_ Pretty, but If I must choose only two, it’s ‘Nice’ and ‘Smart’. If it’s only one choice, then it’s ‘Nice’. Looks often _get_ attention, but it takes personality and brains to _keep_ my attention. Fortunately, there’s no lack of pleasant, smart women. If you keep your eyes open, there’s even a fair number of pleasant, smart, pretty women out there. I know, 'cause I’ve got one! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lorinada \* > Of course, your situation and mine just reinforce my belief that even if, IF men truly desire intelligent women, they still gravitate toward the dolts. > > To **the rest of you men who claim to prefer smart women** : where were all of you when I was still young and slim? Two things: 1 - Let me suggest that, unless you’ve _really_ been getting around, your sample is less than meaningful, statistically speaking. 2 - Statements like that one I quoted (I left your bolding intact) will seriously turn most guys off, because it looks to us like we’re not going to get a fair shake from you, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![brainychick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@brainychick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainychick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/97 "2002-04-22T21:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > \*\*Not to sound mean, but I agree with Turpentine that your chosen Dopername sent up a red flag for me. Unless it’s sort of a joke, as in, brainy, but also using the term “chick” which some humorless intelligent broads would be offended by. \*\* My selected handle is a tongue-in-cheek thing, meant to show that I’m bright but not uptight. 😉 I do have the problem of perhaps making too much of my own intelligence, as well as the intelligence, or lack thereof, in others. I think it’s an act of defiance against a culture that seems to value women who are just cute and stupid. :mad: I’d rather be the kind of woman who is nice to look at and to talk to. I spend time working on both. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/98 "2002-04-22T21:22:31Z")
brainychick, Perhaps your situation isn’t so much about being intelligent, but more about your style, how you come off to people. Perhaps what you’re projecting puts men off, and perhaps you’re seeking out particular types of men that are put off by your persona. Your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![brainychick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b38774/32.png) [@brainychick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainychick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/99 "2002-04-22T21:37:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EasyPhil \* > \*\*Perhaps your situation isn’t so much about being intelligent, but more about your style, how you come off to people. Perhaps what you’re projecting puts men off, and perhaps you’re seeking out particular types of men that are put off by your persona. > \*\* Could be. Who knows? I smile a lot, say hello to everybody, and I generally like talking to people. I’m pretty open about everything, as well as outspoken and straightforward. Some of my good friends who are male tell me I don’t “act like a woman,” whatever that means. :rolleyes: When pressed, they say that I am not as self-deprecating or deferent to them as they’ve seen women be. They say that I challenge them; they can’t just say the little platitudes or whatever that they usually use. They say that this can be refreshing, but also a little scary, because they believe men are not used to this. I suppose that this is why these men prefer to be friends with me and nothing more, but who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573/100 "2002-04-22T21:40:19Z")
No offence but this is probably a bad board for your question; everyone that sticks around here has a modicum of intelligence and most guys with brains prefer women with them. The only men I know that only like dumb women are themselves dumb. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-men-really-desire-smart-women/104573.md?page=6)