# Do messageboards go through waves of nastiness? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982 "2005-11-07T23:48:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/61 "2005-11-10T15:18:53Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Now see, this is something totally different, and in this case, I’m in agreement with the school (assuming that the goading was nonphysical). Unfortunately the goading at times was physical (pushing, etc.) and I’m sure the victim felt at the end that he had no other recourse than to do what he did, seeing as how nothing else was resolving the problem, including trying to walk away and ignore it. And I agree with **SteveG1** that the ‘punish both students equally, regardless’ policy, which is what the policy of the school is, is stupid. I thought so at the time I was in school myself, as the policy there was exactly the same. It leaves victims with essentially no recourse and no relief from being victimized. I think all this policy does is relieve the school of the extra work of having to figure out what really went on to cause a fight and who is really at fault. I understand with kids that can be really difficult, but I also don’t think applying a blanket policy blindly is much good either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/62 "2005-11-10T18:38:28Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Please find me a public school that does not have this policy, that suspends bullies but not the victims. I trust you understand what a ridiculous cite-request this is: you’re the one making the claim about “most schools,” and the fact that I can’t search school policies online does not magically make your point unassailable. If you think this is the policy at most schools, it’s YOUR responsibility to back it up. If you were just talking out your ass when you said that, have the integrity to admit it. > [@SteveG1](#): > > I don’t see any logic in punishing the victim, and even less logic in punishing a victim who did not fight back. That’s pretty damn stupid. Can you give me a clear definition of “victim” in this case, so that students may look at it and know when they can expect punishment? Help me figure out who should be punished in the following cases: 1. John looks at Abe and scowls. Abe punches John in the mouth. 2. John calls Abe a jerk. Abe punches John in the mouth. 3. John calls Abe a faggot. Abe punches John in the mouth. 4. John tells Abe that he’s been engaging in sexual relations with Abe’s mother. Abe punches John in the mouth. 5. John pushes Abe. Abe punches John in the mouth. In all five cases, I believe Abe should be punished. In cases 3-5, I believe John should also be punished (and possibly in case 2, but I’m willing to allow more lenience here). In all five cases, if Abe doesn’t fight back, I absolutely agree that Abe shouldn’t be punished. Similarly, in case six, I believe Abe shouldn’t be punished: 6) John gets six friends together to surround Abe. John pushes Abe while another friend kneels behind him, so that Abe falls over. Other members of the group clutch their keys in their hands to form improvised brass knuckles. Abe jumps up and, in fighting his way out of the circle, clocks John upside the head badly enough that John has to go to the emergency room for stitches, using a combination lock that he’d put in a gym sock earlier that morning after previous threats were made against him. [real incident from my high-school years, involving the aforementioned Montessori kid] But the salient difference is that the person who **escalates** the situation is the one who should be punished. In some circumstances, both sides escalate (e.g., example #3); then both sides get punished. Calling Abe a victim when he’s the one who escalates from verbal to physical is misleading. **Zoe** , I’m aware that both sides may need to be reported. I’m not convinced that “most schools” punish both sides equally. For example, in the case of John and Abe #6, my Montessori friend did not receive as much punishment as the guys who encircled and attacked him. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/63 "2005-11-11T00:33:06Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Please find me a public school that does not have this policy, that suspends bullies but not the victims. I attended three high schools. Of those, one suspended bullies and not victims, one suspended victims and not bullies\*, and one, as far as I saw, never suspended anybody. With that said, unless the parents involved are willing to raise nine kinds of hell, I bet that the “suspend everybody” policy is most common by far, since it doesn’t require school officials to take one kid’s word over another’s. \*Yes, really. I got a lot of story material out of that school; one of the best ends on a True Quote by the headmaster of the time: “If he bit you, you must have done something to deserve it.” ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/64 "2005-11-11T14:00:40Z")
Answering the OP, yes, I have noticed cyclical nastiness on another board I visit. It is essentially unmoderated (_extremely_ offensive posts and the most blatant of trolls will probably get deleted by a mod, but that’s pretty rare), and about every quarter there’s an upswing in the invective. Posters who are normally cordial to one another will turn debates into mudslinging. After a week or two, things seem to cool down, some apologies are actually made, and things return more or less to normal. It’s an interesting phenomenon. Regarding the now-hijack, I have a conflicted opinion regarding the bullying problem. I graduated from high school in 1985, and our (public) high school had a close-to-zero-tolerance approach to fighting in school. I was one of those kids who was bullied a lot. I learned after a while to pretty much ignore the verbal stuff, although I was able to occasionally able to lob a good verbal grenade back. But the physical stuff was very, very difficult to deal with. Most of it was minor; the shove into the lockers in passing, the slap to the back of the head, that sort of thing. It looks very different, however, when you’re 145 pounds dripping wet, and the captain of the wrestling team has you in a choke-hold in the gym locker room. What are you supposed to do then? Sure I could tell a teacher about it afterward, but what then? If I was “lucky,” (and I use the term loosely) the teacher would take me as seriously as he could, but all that would lead to was a verbal warning to the offender, which would, in turn, lead to being branded as a snitch and an escalation in the physical confrontations. As a result, I did nothing, and I honestly believe that it was only through sheer luck that I escaped serious physical harm. It took an extraordinary amount of self-discipline to not return physical violence with violence, and I think it is unfair to expect that every adolescent exhibit similar self-control. Should they aspire to it? Probably, but they’re adolescents. To _expect_ it puts an unfair burden on the victim. I don’t have an easy solution, but I do think we need to take a step backward and allow school administrators some degree of discretion in these cases. To simply say “zero tolerance, punish all offenders equally” is too absolute. If you have a case like an earlier post described, where there is a documented string of events and threats, I think that should be taken into account when the victim finally has enough and fights back. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/65 "2005-11-11T23:12:25Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > I don’t have an easy solution, but I do think we need to take a step backward and allow school administrators some degree of discretion in these cases. To simply say “zero tolerance, punish all offenders equally” is too absolute. If you have a case like an earlier post described, where there is a documented string of events and threats, I think that should be taken into account when the victim finally has enough and fights back. I mostly agree with this, and I recognize the difficulties of setting up fair rules. However, I also know that when I was in high school, the principal was an idiot and a petty tyrant (e.g., to stop students from smoking in the bathrooms, he locked almost all the bathrooms in the school, switching which few were open without any notice to students). I don’t like the current system, but I worry that giving too much discretion to administrators could make it even worse. Perhaps the solution is at an earlier stage: perhaps we should get teachers to take bullying much more seriously, so that, hopefully, the physical confrontations never even get a chance to start? I don’t know. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/66 "2005-11-12T00:22:33Z")
Well, it’s not quite the same, but my daughter was sexually harassed by an upper classman and HE was suspended, but she wasn’t. In that case, she had a note written by him that was quite disgusting, BTW. In our elementary school, what they do to the victims of bullying is sad. They make the vicitims join a special lunch period group called “friends” (teacher moderated) and keep them inside. Who is being punished there? I say pull the bullies off the playground and make them do encounter-group work! In middle school–they punish everyone. My son got detention because he got a note from a girl. The note was in her handwriting and she was the one who said nasty things about the teacher–my son didn’t even reply to the damn thing! He got detention. The only reason I didn’t make a stink was because the girl also got detention. My son was threatened with suspension if he didn’t rat out the girl, though–she hadn’t signed her name to the note. I refused to let him take the fall for a girl who was no better than she should be. :mad: Whatever… ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/67 "2005-11-12T00:31:34Z")
One message board I frequent created an area just for a crazy highjacking, large picture posting nutcase. He used to visit my board too - but we banned the nutbar because well - he hijacked every thread, posted threats to other users, and really big annoying pictures. My message board has it share of nuts from time to time - but this guy is a class A nutbar and he’s the only person we’ve ever banned even though there are a few who would never make it here without being banned within a day. I guess it depends on the focus of the site, and the focus of the users on the site, and half my message board has ADD and the another half are just arguemental - and often people are both - but I love it anyway. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/68 "2005-11-12T06:11:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It is hugely entertaining to see **LHOD** , of all people, complaining about uncivil conduct on a message board. I needed a good laugh - thanks. Hmmm? I didn’t notice that LHoD had a tendancy to misbehave on this board… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/69 "2005-11-12T13:38:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Hmmm? I didn’t notice that LHoD had a tendancy to misbehave on this board… Eh. I don’t, really, but **Elvis** is kind of an idiot in threads dealing with partisan politics, and I’ve not been shy about saying that. So he doesn’t like me. No skin off my back. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/70 "2005-11-14T03:18:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t mean this in a hostile way, but how do you think your son is going to deal with delinquents, bullies, and tyrants when he leaves school? For better or worse, I think that learning how to handle assholes is one of the most valuable things a student can learn in school. > > Granted, they really hit you hard with that lesson. But still. > > Daniel Fair question. I attended private schools from Pre-K through High School. In my experience, assholes, bullying and pariahs are always with us, it’s just that the intensity is lower in private schools. (I’m basing this on my talks with friends who attended both). In school, I occasionally found it necessary to stand up for myself and others (before grade 10, I was very short for my age; now I am merely somewhat shorter than average). These skills, such as they are, really haven’t proved particularly useful in adulthood. If I meet a random asshole, I evade. If the asshole lands a hand on me, I sue. No, the latter has never happened: you see, they key skill is not confrontation (as an adult); the key skill is de-escalation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/71 "2005-11-14T03:53:39Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > In school, I occasionally found it necessary to stand up for myself and others (before grade 10, I was very short for my age; now I am merely somewhat shorter than average). These skills, such as they are, really haven’t proved particularly useful in adulthood. > > If I meet a random asshole, I evade. If the asshole lands a hand on me, I sue. No, the latter has never happened: you see, they key skill is not confrontation (as an adult); the key skill is de-escalation. Your experience, down to the height and the adult skills learned from bullies, is almost exactly the same as mine. However, I learned them at a public school. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982/72 "2005-11-14T05:32:35Z")
Cool. Here’s something to think about. The adult-world places less emphasis on confrontation than on de-escalation (though admittedly both skills have their uses in both contexts). I’m _guessing_ that the added personal benefits of dealing with a wider range of people in public schools really are pretty small after you’ve reached the age of, say, 24. Again, private schools have their druggies, bullies and delinquents as well: it’s just that those who stick around are more discrete and less intensively anti-social. I acknowledge though that private schools tend to perpetuate society’s existing inequalites. I also acknowledge that there are some terrific public schools in the US: Bronx High School of Science is but one example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-messageboards-go-through-waves-of-nastiness/329982.md?page=3)