# Do NATO planes buzz the Russians ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013 "2015-09-30T05:11:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/1 "2015-09-30T05:11:55Z")
Lot’s of news in recent times about Russian planes buzzing European NATO airspace, do NATO planes do the same thing to the Russians? Internet searches don’t give much on this. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/2 "2015-09-30T06:09:28Z")
Yes. Most famously one of them led to the KAL 007 shoot down. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/3 "2015-09-30T06:17:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes. Most famously one of them led to the KAL 007 shoot down. Those weren’t Russians. They were Soviets. Not an insignificant difference. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/4 "2015-09-30T13:24:55Z")
I’m sure it happens, probably pretty frequently. We just don’t hear about it until somebody dies. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/5 "2015-09-30T13:31:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes. Most famously one of them led to the KAL 007 shoot down. I don’t follow. Are you saying KAL 007 was an American plane? But yes, US aircraft regularly go near other countries’ airspace for various reasons, such as intelligence collection. One incident that comes to mind is when China rammed a US Navy EP-3 causing it to have an emergency landing on Hainan Island in 2001. > **[Hainan Island incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident)** > > George W. Bush > Jiang Zemin > The Hainan Island incident was a ten-day international incident between the United States and the People's Republic of China (PRC) that resulted from a mid-air collision between a United States Navy EP-3E ARIES II signals intelligence aircraft and a Chinese Air Force J-8 interceptor on April 1, 2001. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/6 "2015-09-30T15:45:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t follow. Are you saying KAL 007 was an American plane? … I suspect he’s relating one of these: [Korean Air Lines Flight 007 alternative theories - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007_alternative_theories). Namely that a US spy plane was also in the area at the time when KAL 007 blundered through. The Soviets shot down the wrong aircraft due to simple mistaken identity. The theory being that Soviets believed a sophisticated US spy plane was directly overflying their sensitive installations and had to be stopped. Whether the theory has any basis in reality is probably beyond absolute irrefutable proof now. Which means many people will dismiss it out of hand, while others will accept it unquestioningly. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/7 "2015-09-30T16:20:23Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I suspect he’s relating one of these: [Korean Air Lines Flight 007 alternative theories - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007_alternative_theories). > > Namely that a US spy plane was also in the area at the time when KAL 007 blundered through. The Soviets shot down the wrong aircraft due to simple mistaken identity. The theory being that Soviets believed a sophisticated US spy plane was directly overflying their sensitive installations and had to be stopped. > > Whether the theory has any basis in reality is probably beyond absolute irrefutable proof now. Which means many people will dismiss it out of hand, while others will accept it unquestioningly. According to [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007#Shootdown) > [@](#): > > Aircraft from USS Midway and USS Enterprise repeatedly overflew Soviet military installations in the disputed Kuril Islands during FleetEx '83,[29] resulting in the dismissal or reprimanding of Soviet military officials who had been unable to shoot them down.[30] On the Soviet side, RYAN was expanded.[30] Lastly, there was a heightened alert around the Kamchatka Peninsula at the time KAL 007 was in the vicinity,\*\* because of a Soviet missile test that was scheduled for the same day. A United States Air Force Boeing RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft flying in the area was monitoring the missile test off the peninsula\*\*.[31] ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/8 "2015-09-30T16:34:27Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I’m sure it happens, probably pretty frequently. We just don’t hear about it until somebody dies. Wouldn’t RT would be crowing all about it ? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/9 "2015-09-30T18:22:09Z")
What exactly does the OP mean by “buzzing”? The OP seems to mean just an incursion into their airspace. That sort of thing happens all the time. The U.S. constantly sends spy planes up and down the Russian border. KAL007 and a U.S. spy plane were on similar paths, and the Soviets probably got them confused, especially when the spy plane veered away from the border like a commercial plane would be expected to do while KAL007 (probably due to an error in the settings on their auto pilot) actually flew inside the Soviet border, like an aggressive spy plane might be expected to do. The fact that U.S. spy planes were routinely pushing limits on similar paths didn’t help the situation any. And it’s not just the U.S./NATO and Russia. The Chinese have been criticized lately for being a bit too aggressive with their incursions into Japanese airspace, and China keeps bitching to the U.S. about us sending planes into territory that the Chinese have disputed ownership with. China also routinely sends planes into Indian airspace, and China and Russia also routinely press into each other’s airspaces. Greece chased half a dozen Turkish warplanes out of its airspace earlier this year. It’s not clear if that was a navigational error on the part of the Turkish planes or if they were testing Greece’s response times. I personally think it was the latter. Ships and submarines also routinely push boundaries and test response times. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/10 "2015-09-30T18:49:37Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong but buzzing means going close enough to airspace as to provoke a reaction, or actually entering it. Like the buzzing insect that gets close enough to be a concern. I think the answer, though, is yes NATO does buzz the Russians and others. Don’t really hear much about it though until something goes badly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/11 "2015-10-01T00:33:09Z")
Ancient history, of course, but U.S. U2 flights were made over Soviet airspace, and not just by sticking a toe over the border. It really bugged the Soviets, as their interectors could not reach the U2. Turned out a missile could, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/12 "2015-10-01T06:50:49Z")
It’s “Intelligence Gathering” when we do it. It’s only “buzzing” (and I’d hesitate to call it that) when they do it to us. When I read the topic, I thought this thread would be about interceptions and attempts by pilots of one nation to intimidate pilots of other nations by flying very close or even aggressively towards them. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/13 "2015-10-01T06:56:01Z")
Buzzing is done to other planes or ships, by either side. Incursions are to air spaces. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/14 "2015-10-01T19:18:25Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > It’s “Intelligence Gathering” when we do it. It’s only “buzzing” (and I’d hesitate to call it that) when they do it to us. … There’s a good-sized element of truth to that. But … Much of the brouhaha about this in the current NATO / EU context is that the Russians are doing their intelligence gathering / incursions in areas with very dense civil traffic. And with no coordination with the civil ATC in the area. Which has a material risk of midair collision or of a true “buzzing” with aircraft all but meeting in the sky. Just due to where the Russians have a lot of interesting stuff that attracts intelligence gathering, NATO & US forces are able to do the same kind of thing without flying blind through streams of airliners. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/15 "2015-10-01T19:40:21Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > NATO & US forces are able to do the same kind of thing without flying blind through streams of airliners. How quickly are they flying blind through streams of airliners and how quickly are the airliners flying? ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/16 "2015-10-02T00:32:44Z")
If I’m not mistaken, most modern multi-engined jets cruise at around five or six hundred miles per hour (basically about as close as they can get to the speed of sound without a drastic loss in fuel efficiency). The turbo-prop driven Bear bombers and their derivatives that the Russians (and the Soviets before them) operate operate around the same performance envelope. Regarding the mention of the RC-135 earlier, it is worth noting that the C-135s (RC-135, OC-135, EC-135, and most commonly the KC-135, with probably a few other variants) are close cousins of the Boeing 707, the archetypical modern jetliner, both the 707 and the C-135 being based on the Boeing 367-80, AKA the “Dash 80”. The Boeing 747 is much bigger and has the distinctive bulgy second deck that the 707 lacks, but I’d imagine that a 707, a 747, a Dash 80, and an RC-135 would all behave roughly the same when flying in a straight line, due to roughly similar aerodynamic considerations. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/17 "2015-10-02T00:42:19Z")
Also, the reasons why different nations fly into each others’ airspaces vary, partly due to varying opinions on the borders of various nations’ airspaces. Every so often one nation will claim a certain bit of territory as theirs, to sometimes include highly traveled bits of water or airspace used by many different nations. The US has historically had a habit of sailing through such claimed areas with carrier battle groups as a means of delegitimizing such claims when whichever local power neglects to enforce their claims against the intruders (or any civilian traffic which happens to be nearby). Or by knocking down whoever comes up to challenge them on the odd occasion where they did try to enforce their claim, as happened in the Gulf of Sidra in 1981 between the US and Libya. And in the same place between the same two parties in 1986. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/18 "2015-10-02T01:22:09Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, most modern multi-engined jets cruise at around five or six hundred miles per hour (basically about as close as they can get to the speed of sound without a drastic loss in fuel efficiency). So they are approaching each other at 1,200 MPH. The fighters may not be using radar to hide; I wonder how quickly they can see the other guy to avoid him. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/19 "2015-10-02T13:37:50Z")
From Sept 15 – [UK fighters intercept Russian Blackjack bombers](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raf-typhoon-jets-scramble-intercept-6426538) – complete with pics ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013/20 "2015-10-02T13:52:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > There’s a good-sized element of truth to that. But … > > Much of the brouhaha about this in the current NATO / EU context is that the Russians are doing their intelligence gathering / incursions in areas with very dense civil traffic. And with no coordination with the civil ATC in the area. > > Which has a material risk of midair collision or of a true “buzzing” with aircraft all but meeting in the sky. > > Just due to where the Russians have a lot of interesting stuff that attracts intelligence gathering, NATO & US forces are able to do the same kind of thing without flying blind through streams of airliners. :dubious: The North Sea and the Russian far east are both major airline routes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nato-planes-buzz-the-russians/733013.md?page=2)