# Do navies patrol lakes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 19, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079 "2022-04-19T20:22:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/41 "2022-04-20T16:29:39Z")
The U.S. Navy has the U.S. Naval Construction Force, composed of many [Construction Battalions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabee) (also known as "C.B."s or “Seabees”.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/42 "2022-04-20T18:37:22Z")
As it happens, I’ve been aboard two warships on Lake Erie, one historic (and the vessel from which the aforementioned _DONT GIVE UP THE SHIP_ flag was flown) and one still on active duty at the time. > **[USS Niagara (1813)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Niagara_(1813))** > > .mw-parser-output .geo-default,.mw-parser-output .geo-dms,.mw-parser-output .geo-dec{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .geo-nondefault,.mw-parser-output .geo-multi-punct,.mw-parser-output .geo-inline-hidden{display:none}.mw-parser-output .longitude,.mw-parser-output .latitude{white-space:nowrap}42°8′14″N 80°5′15″W / 42.13722°N 80.08750°W / 42.13722; -80.08750 > USS Niagara, commonly called the U.S. Brig Niagara or the Flagship Niagara, is a wooden-hulled snow-brig.mw-parser-output .citation{wo... > **[USS Samuel Eliot Morison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_Eliot_Morison_(FFG-13))** > > USS Samuel Eliot Morison (FFG-13), was the seventh Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate in service with the United States Navy. She was named for Rear Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison (1887–1976), one of America's most distinguished naval historians, who wrote more than 40 books on naval history including the official history of the US Navy in World War II. > Samuel Eliot Morison was the first ship of that name in the U.S. Navy. > On 11 April 2002, Samuel Eliot Morison was decommissioned and transferred... > [@md-2000](#): > > > [@Hatchie](#): > > > > The Bolivian Navy: Because look out Chile, we just might take back our coastline that you took from us in 1887. (We kid, but they do look pretty badass.) > > Wasn’t von Trapp a captain in the Austrian navy? 🙂 > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Yes, and a pretty good one. [Author John Biggins wrote some enjoyable adventure novels](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08WHC23RV?binding=kindle_edition&qid=1650434455&sr=8-3&ref=dbs_dp_awt_sb_pc_tukn) about the Austro-Hungarian navy some years ago. The Perfect Master speaks: [In The Sound of Music, how can Capt. von Trapp be a veteran of landlocked Austria’s navy? - The Straight Dope](https://www.straightdope.com/21342344/in-em-the-sound-of-music-em-how-can-capt-von-trapp-be-a-veteran-of-landlocked-austria-s-navy) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/43 "2022-04-20T18:38:54Z")
That hasn’t stopped the Navy in the past; in Vietnam they had river patrol boats that had drafts of 2 feet and the famous ‘swift boats’ had drafts of 5 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/44 "2022-04-20T18:41:41Z")
President Lincoln sent a letter to political supporters in Illinois in August 1863, noting the recent victorious efforts of the Federal armies at Gettysburg and Vicksburg. But he went on to write, “Nor must Uncle Sam’s web-feet be forgotten. At all the watery margins [the Navy’s men and ships] have been present. Not only on the deep sea, the broad bay, and the rapid river, but also up the narrow muddy bayou, and wherever the ground was a little damp, they have been, and made their tracks. Thanks to all.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/45 "2022-04-20T18:58:21Z")
Not sure if it’s patrolling exactly, but: [https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NUWC-Newport/What-We-Do/Detachments/Seneca-Lake/](https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NUWC-Newport/What-We-Do/Detachments/Seneca-Lake/) ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/46 "2022-04-20T19:20:08Z")
The general term for naval operations in inland waters is “brown-water navy”. > **[Brown-water navy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown-water_navy)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > The term 'brown-water navy' or 'riverine navy' refers in its broadest sense to any naval force capable of military operations in littoral zone waters. The term originated in the United States Navy during the American Civil War, when it referred to Union forces patrolling the muddy Mississippi River, and has since been used to describe the small gunboats and patrol boats commonly used in rivers, along with the larger "mother ships" that supported... Generally, this implies riverine operations but lakes that are embedded in river systems would obviously be included. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/47 "2022-04-20T19:54:03Z")
There is a reason why the Coast Guard are called puddle pirates. The US Navy does have a presence on China Lake. Not much of a lake to be honest. [https://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrsw/installations/naws\_china\_lake.html](https://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrsw/installations/naws_china_lake.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/48 "2022-04-20T20:20:11Z")
Yes, I own them all, they are quite good. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/49 "2022-04-20T21:44:58Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > The only time I’ve seen Navy ships on the Great Lakes (US and Canadian navies) is when they’re on a goodwill tour. There are also a few museum ships permanently docked in the Great Lakes. The submarine USS Cod, in Cleveland, is the one I know best. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/50 "2022-04-20T22:22:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You have the Great Lakes shared by the UAS and Canada - mostly Superior, Erie and Ontario - but they’re friendly nations and have agreed not to militarize the lakes. I’m trying to find a cite, but my understanding is the U.S. and Canada have a defense treaty allowing for passage of warships throughout the Great Lakes system, including Lake Michigan, whose shores are entirely American. Mostly used by the coast guards, rather than navies. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/51 "2022-04-20T23:21:42Z")
The USS _Cobia_ is moored at Manitowoc, WI as well. The Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company built 28 WWII subs as well as LCTs and cargo ships for the Navy. The subs left Lake Michigan via Chicago and the Illinois River. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/52 "2022-04-20T23:31:15Z")
ouch. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/53 "2022-04-20T23:40:22Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > In less friendly times, Lake Champlain was twice the cite of key naval engagements […] Hmmm… can you give us a site, please? ETA: damn. I shoulda known I’d be beaten to the pun ch. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/54 "2022-04-21T01:11:20Z")
As noted earlier, Russia-v.-Ukraine is being fought on the Black Sea. But the Caspian Sea is still part of the OP, being a lake (despite the name) and having five nations as part of its shoreline. And the Soviet Union definitely had a naval presence in the Caspian Sea… > **[Lun-class ekranoplan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > Coordinates: .mw-parser-output .geo-default,.mw-parser-output .geo-dms,.mw-parser-output .geo-dec{display:inline}.mw-parser-output .geo-nondefault,.mw-parser-output .geo-multi-punct{display:none}.mw-parser-output .longitude,.mw-parser-output .latitude{white-space:nowrap}41°56′26″N 48°22′44″E / 41.94067°N 48.37885°E / 41.94067; 48.37885 > The Lun-class ekranoplan (also called Project 903) is the only ground effect vehicle (GEV) to ever be opera... Oddly enough, Wikipedia has nothing about Iranian naval presence on the Caspian Sea, even during the Cold War when there could well have been the occasional clash with the Soviets. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/55 "2022-04-21T10:34:53Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Site? [Here’s a cite.](https://www.whitehall-chamber.org/) It was designated the birthplace of the American Navy by the New York State Legislature. I had an argument with a Whitehall resident about that. My position was that you could do a lot of great things on a land locked lake, but launching a navy wasn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/56 "2022-04-21T11:43:38Z")
Thank you. Also whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/57 "2022-04-21T16:16:39Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m trying to find a cite, but my understanding is the U.S. and Canada have a defense treaty allowing for passage of warships throughout the Great Lakes system, including Lake Michigan, whose shores are entirely American. Mostly used by the coast guards, rather than navies. See post 20, and here: [Rush–Bagot Treaty - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush%E2%80%93Bagot_Treaty) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/58 "2022-04-21T16:33:18Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > I’m trying to find a cite, but my understanding is the U.S. and Canada have a defense treaty allowing for passage of warships throughout the Great Lakes system, including Lake Michigan, whose shores are entirely American. Mostly used by the coast guards, rather than navies. > > See post 20, and here:   [Rush–Bagot Treaty - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush%E2%80%93Bagot_Treaty) Thanks, but those don’t address my specific question: does the Canadian coast guard have freedom of navigation into Lake Michigan? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/59 "2022-04-21T17:34:59Z")
This suggests not, but I don’t know for sure. I’ll ask my favorite Canadian Doper to take a look: [https://greatlakesecho.org/2018/12/19/u-s-canadian-coast-guards-break-ice-on-shared-waters/](https://greatlakesecho.org/2018/12/19/u-s-canadian-coast-guards-break-ice-on-shared-waters/) ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079/60 "2022-04-21T18:00:32Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Thanks, but those don’t address my specific question: does the Canadian coast guard have freedom of navigation into Lake Michigan? If the Rush-Bagot Treaty didn’t make an exception, then Canada could have two armed ships in Lake Michigan. That treaty may still be nominally in effect, but effectively it’s been superseded by other agreements, so that’s not really an answer. The article Elendil\_s\_Heir linked to says that the two Coast Guards’ icebreakers will at times do their icebreaking in each other’s territory, so it’s possible a Canadian icebreaker may work in Lake Michigan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-navies-patrol-lakes/963079.md?page=4)