# Do 'nice guys' ever find women who will accept them? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 23, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482 "2016-05-23T20:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/461 "2016-06-03T21:52:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And while a “nice guy” might feel angsty about his single status during his college years, I think women are more likely to be okay with theirs. Probably because they are less likely to hear (or absorb the message) that they are “losers” . Unattached women hardly ever gets called “spinster” anymore, but I suppose that’s what girls back in the day were called who made it to their 30s without a man on her arm. This is interesting, because it’s almost 100% opposite of my experience.\* In my experience, single guys of any age seem to get a (collective) pass. (“Oh, he just doesn’t want to settle down.”) Whereas people assume that if you are a single woman of a certain age, there must be something wrong with you. And they feel perfectly comfortable asking you what that something is, or even better, speculating as to what it is. > [@monstro](#): > > But a 30-year-old woman who had no interest being a boy-crazy adolescent back when she was an adolescent doesn’t want a jock, geek, a guitarist, or a biker. She wants an entire human being who can see her as an entire human being. Beautifully put. \*Except grandmothers. I’ve found that grandmothers are pretty equal opportunity about asking “Why aren’t you married yet?” ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/462 "2016-06-03T22:12:04Z")
The assumption that “he just doesn’t want to settle down” is only one you’re granted if you date often enough and visibly enough that your success with the opposite sex isn’t really imputable, though - at least in my experience. A man who does not date at least somewhat regularly and has not settled down by his mid-30s is, in my experience, almost instantly labeled as somewhere in the territory of either a loser or a freak. Similarly so in particular for male virgins beyond a relatively young age (as young as 18 in some subcultures), who are perhaps the most frequent victims of “toxic masculinity.” ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/463 "2016-06-03T22:21:31Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > The assumption that “he just doesn’t want to settle down” is only one you’re granted if you date often enough and visibly enough that your success with the opposite sex isn’t really imputable, though - at least in my experience. A man who does not date at least somewhat regularly and has not settled down by his mid-30s is, in my experience, almost instantly labeled as somewhere in the territory of either a loser or a freak. Similarly so in particular for male virgins beyond a relatively young age (as young as 18 in some subcultures), who are perhaps the most frequent victims of “toxic masculinity.” Good points. I tried to couch things in terms of “my experience.” Since I can’t firsthand experience what a guy would experience, then yes, my data samples are necessarily biased. Basically, there is grief being given, regardless of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/464 "2016-06-03T22:36:11Z")
I must say there’s some outstanding and sensible observations being made in this thread. Hopefully there’s a few folks reading this (even if they’re not participating) and getting something useful out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/465 "2016-06-03T23:01:24Z")
I’ve participated in a fair few threads like this and quite frankly this is the first one I’ve ever seen that didn’t devolve into a shit-flinging debacle more befitting of caged chimpanzees than human beings. It’s genuinely refreshing. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/466 "2016-06-03T23:40:06Z")
There was one a few weeks ago (which I started) that stayed pretty civil. Maybe the excrement flingers’ arms got tired. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/467 "2016-06-03T23:54:18Z")
Quite possibly. It’s just quite rare for a “Women be all like… while Men be all like…” discussion to not end up going more pear shaped than a Giant Pear roadside attraction and fruit market. Like I said, it’s nice. I just wish I had more to contribute to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/468 "2016-06-04T03:12:18Z")
If Ms. P were willing to post why she “accepted” me, would anyone find it useful? Not positive she’d want to do it, but she probably would. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/469 "2016-06-04T03:15:48Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > If Ms. P were willing to post why she “accepted” me, would anyone find it useful? Not positive she’d want to do it, but she probably would. I would actually find that very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/470 "2016-06-04T04:49:55Z")
This is is Ms. P, and I haven’t posted here before, so I’m just using P-man’s account. I just scrolled through the entire thread, so I would know what I was responding to. I’m not quite sure how my answer will be that helpful, but at least one person said it might be interesting. I looked in to P’s eyes and immediately saw “somebody who would understand me”. That had never happened to me before, so I have no idea why it did in that moment. It just felt like a magical moment, and so did the rest of the evening, and the whole beginning of our relationship. Since I had 10 years of fairly “unmagical” relationships with 2 other guys (both also fairly nice), I guess we were just a good fit at that point. P’s lack of relationship experience didn’t bother me, but it did pose challenges. My mom made the first move with my inept dad, too, which I well knew, so I had no problem with that part of it. I wouldn’t be here if the women in my family weren’t OK with that. P has many, many good qualities, many of which he’s already listed here. I like the non-simplicity and somebody who’s not so easy to figure out. I like a good puzzle. His dad actually laughed really hard at me one time when I said to P’s mom (about fitting myself in to the rural setting where P came from) that “I’m a smart lady, and I like a good challenge.” Like most people who have been in marriages for close to 20 years, we’ve had some very rough times. P has stood by me through several things that someone who wasn’t so “nice” just would have up and left over. Like several people said, I’m pretty shy (and introverted) myself, so we’re compatible in that way. I just have the capacity to be really brave when necessary. Maybe I’m not quite as socially anxious as P, but our sons get that from both of us, poor guys. In general, P’s probably “nicer” than I am, but I’ve had my share of people calling me “sweet”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/471 "2016-06-04T13:02:55Z")
Thanks **P-man’s** wife for sharing her insight. Someone who is shy, and introverted isn’t going to go for the showy or the flashy. She’s going to go for the real. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to put yourself out there, guys. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to do any work. But it does mean that you want a woman to be able to look in your eyes and see _herself_ staring back at her. Everyone wants someone who gets them. If you try to be something you’re not (more masculine, more sexy, more “cool”), you’re probably going to turn away the women who would accept you for who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/472 "2016-06-04T17:47:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > That doesn’t mean you don’t have to put yourself out there, guys. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to do any work. Wouldn’t you want to practice how to do that work? If I’m lifting a boulder a year from now, I may want to prepare. Work out a bit. Especially if I don’t even know what a boulder even is, how heavy it is, or how to lift one. So, I work out, and then I study how levers and pulleys work. Changing yourself and improving yourself doesn’t mean that you’re suddenly “faking” or that you somehow become insincere. It can mean taking a part of you that is there, but underdeveloped, and strengthening it. Like when you work a muscle in the gym. Or finding a better way to something that you’re already doing, but going about in a wrong-headed fashion. I have to say that I’m a bit amazed that this is something that I suddenly feel needs explaining. Isn’t that just living? So I’m not entirely sure what’s going on there. **monstro** , I want to ask you something. Please don’t take this the wrong way. I’m just bouncing some balls around here. What would be your advice to the guy in this story from earlier? > [@monstro](#): > > I once had a very negative experience with a Nice Guy. He befriended me, but never once let me know that he had feelings for me. And then when it became clear I wasn’t going to make the first step, he became enraged–scaring the shit out of me–forever ruining our friendship. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/473 "2016-06-04T18:42:47Z")
**monstro** , another thing. Sorry, I’m thinking in bursts. I’ve been doing it all thread, I know. > [@monstro](#): > > Someone who is shy, and introverted isn’t going to go for the showy or the flashy. She’s going to go for the real. You’re focusing on this part: > [@P-man](#): > > I’m pretty shy (and introverted) Why are you ignoring this part? > [@P-man](#): > > I just have the capacity to be really brave when necessary. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/474 "2016-06-04T19:24:08Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Wouldn’t you want to practice how to do that work? If I’m lifting a boulder a year from now, I may want to prepare. Work out a bit. Especially if I don’t even know what a boulder even is, how heavy it is, or how to lift one. So, I work out, and then I study how levers and pulleys work. > > Changing yourself and improving yourself doesn’t mean that you’re suddenly “faking” or that you somehow become insincere. It can mean taking a part of you that is there, but underdeveloped, and strengthening it. Like when you work a muscle in the gym. Or finding a better way to something that you’re already doing, but going about in a wrong-headed fashion. I’m scratching my head, trying to figure out why you think I’m against self-improvement. Nothing I’ve said should give you that impression. What I am against is latching on to an image or an act. I’m against learning to play the guitar because you think chicks dig guitar-players. But I’m not against learning to play the guitar because you think it will open up new experiences, introduce you to different people, or give you more confidence. I’m against going to the gym because you think “bros get hos”. But I’m not against going to the gym because you’re unhappy with your physique and you want to look and feel better about yourself, and _thus have more confidence_. > [@](#): > > I have to say that I’m a bit amazed that this is something that I suddenly feel needs explaining. Isn’t that just living? So I’m not entirely sure what’s going on there. I’m baffled why you seem so utterly confused. No one else seems to be so confused, including the happily married guys who’ve posted to this thread. > [@](#): > > **monstro** , I want to ask you something. Please don’t take this the wrong way. I’m just bouncing some balls around here. What would be your advice to the guy in this story from earlier? You mean if that guy was posting to this thread, asking how he could be more attractive to **monstro**? (For one thing, **monstro** would have to be in the mood for a relationship or attracting people. We’ll just pretend that’s the case for the purposes of this discussion.) I’d tell the guy that he needs to go to therapy, first off. Because his social ineptness and his emotional instability are huge turn-offs and will not stop being turn-offs. There’s nothing wrong with therapy. I’ve gotten a lot out of it myself. So if he told me he was in therapy, that would be a plus–not a minus. But barring that, I’d say that he needs to get more with the 21st century. Get more hip to what’s happening in the world right now. **monstro** has a pretty big font of knowledge, but she also enjoys pop culture. So maybe start listening more music from the past 30 years, and less music from the 60s. Maybe check out some movies and books–especially those released in the last 20 years–so that when **monstro** makes an allusion, you don’t just stare at her with a dumb gaze. She also keeps up with current events. So maybe open up a newspaper every once in awhile, so you can amaze her with breaking news she hasn’t heard yet. She’s introverted and socially averse too, but she still keeps tabs on what’s going on. Your lack of contemporary knowledge makes it hard for **monstro** to relate to you. (How the fuck have you never heard of “Thriller”?!) **monstro** likes hiking. She cares about physical fitness to a certain extent, and she’s not into drinking or being around drunk people. So if you’re going to attract her or someone like her, you may want to lay off some on the brewskies and do more exercising. Now, you don’t have to go crazy with it. But she’s probably not going to just want to sit around watching you play guitar all the time\*. She’s going to want to do stuff requiring an outlay of energy. In short, **monstro** is a simple gal. She can put up with a lot of flaws and weaknesses. She doesn’t care that you’re fat, that you still dress like you did in 1978, and that you blush when someone says a cuss word around you ( **monstro** doesn’t find this cute, mind you, but she doesn’t hold it against you). But she’s not looking for a slouch either. So far, you haven’t done anything to show her that you’re either _interesting_ or _mentally/physically healthy_. The latter is important since you’re an older guy who is clearly inexperienced–so you are already throwing up some red flags. To your credit, you’ve shown her that you’re nice and gentle in a lot of ways–and this is great! But **monstro** can get nice and gentle anywhere. She’d actually rather deal with a person who can be a jerk occasionally but who isn’t too timid or set in their ways that they refuse to do anything new or risky. Or risqué, for that matter. You don’t have to be more masculine or macho or “sexy” than you already are. You just have to be engaging and show that you inhabit the same world that she does. Lastly, after two years of **monstro** not falling deeply, madly in love with you, you need to re-assess how you’ve been going about things. **monstro** ain’t a mind-reader. She’s really bad at picking up on “signals”. So if want a relationship that’s beyond friendship, you need to say so explicitly. And then be fine with whatever the answer is. \*The guitar thing is 100% real–not just me being funny. The guy I’m talking about was a guitar-player and not a very good one. He was the kind of guy who’d bring his guitar with him to parties and sit off in the corner like a special snowflake, strumming chords and ignoring everyone else. I didn’t find this attractive. I don’t know if he was trying too hard or the guitar thing was just his security blanket for social situations. But I would have rather he left it at home. It’s not like I wanted to be at the party either, but at least I was making an effort to get out of my comfort zone. A little more effort on his part would have impressed me. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/475 "2016-06-04T19:29:31Z")
**Martian Bigfoot** , I don’t know what you’re communicating in that last post. Of course, **P-Man’s** wife is brave. Anyone who says “yes” to an invitation to go on a date is brave. Anyone who signs up for a relationship is brave. Anyone who signs up for a relationship with a timid, inexperience guy is brave. And? What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/476 "2016-06-04T19:55:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You mean if that guy was posting to this thread, asking how he could be more attractive to **monstro**? No, not that. Sorry. I didn’t mean that. I mean if that guy was posting to this thread, asking how he could avoid having that experience again with someone he was attracted to? Because I know that was a bad day for you. But it probably sucked quite a bit for him, too. I don’t think he went home that day and thought: “Well, that went as planned, and I was the best me I could be today.” ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/477 "2016-06-04T20:04:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And? What am I missing? Don’t you think **P-man** is brave? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/478 "2016-06-04T20:11:44Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > No, not that. Sorry. I didn’t mean that. > > I mean if that guy was posting to this thread, asking how he could avoid having that experience again with someone he was attracted to? Because I know that was a bad day for you. But it probably sucked quite a bit for him, too. I don’t think he went home that day and thought: “Well, that went as planned, and I was the best me I could be today.” He would have saved us both a lot of misery if he had been more explicit in his intentions . He spent two years being nice to me in hopes that I’d make the first move. Not only was that never going to happen, but he couldn’t handle it not happening. I feel like you’re making some point by asking me this question, especially since I was the one who brought him up in the first place. But damned if I know out what that point could be. (Just in case you haven’t picked up on it, I really don’t like guessing games, especially about a topic that I’m really not that invested in. If you’ve got a point, just make it already. Just tell me exactly what you’re disagreeing with me about.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/479 "2016-06-04T20:19:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I feel like you’re making some point by asking me this question, especially since I was the one who brought him up in the first place. But damned if I know out what that point could be. Well, I don’t know exactly either. Maybe you’re helping me find it. Are you cool with going a bit slow here? I hope I’m not boring you. … I need to think about this a bit. Meanwhile, still wondering about this: > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Don’t you think **P-man** is brave? Can we try that one to see if we get anywhere? It may be a better question. For now. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482/480 "2016-06-04T20:22:24Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Don’t you think **P-man** is brave? I think anyone who asks someone if they’d like to go out on a date and doesn’t kill themselves when they get rejected is brave. So just about every guy who has posted to this thread has some guts. And this would include **P-Man**. But **P-Man’s** wife was the one who said she was brave. Did you actually read that post? Again, I’m not getting the point you think you’re making. And my patience is rapidly dwindling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-nice-guys-ever-find-women-who-will-accept-them/755482.md?page=25)