# Do non-Americans have "dreams?"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 6, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383 "2018-07-06T13:26:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/21 "2018-07-06T19:36:11Z")
Sure they do, most of their dreams start with coming to America.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/22 "2018-07-06T19:50:03Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#):
>
> In some places with cradle to grave welfare, there is little need to be above anyone else so less of a desire to push yourself in school to obtain say an advanced degree or training if it only leads to a career with less to show for it.
Seriously?
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/23 "2018-07-07T04:14:38Z")
I do wonder if east Asians cultures ‘dream’ about having high socioeconomic status, but other cultures like those of costa Rica or scandanavia ‘dream’ about self actualization and personal fulfillment.
Do some cultures ‘dream’ about the beautiful trophy spouse while in others you ‘dream’ about someone nice and caring, even if they aren’t much to look at?
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/24 "2018-07-07T04:25:23Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#):
>
> I think their are many places with little potential for social mobility so there is that.
>
> In some places with cradle to grave welfare, there is little need to be above anyone else so less of a desire to push yourself in school to obtain say an advanced degree or training if it only leads to a career with less to show for it.
America has fewer physicans per capita than most of Europe. America has 2.5 while much of Europe has 3-4.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/25 "2018-07-07T10:57:04Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#):
>
> I think their are many places with little potential for social mobility so there is that.
[That place would be America](http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/05133/504149.stm).
America\* talks \*big about people being able to climb to the top,but it’s actually bottom tier when it comes to socioeconomic mobility.
> [@](#):
>
> Despite the widespread belief that the U.S. remains a more mobile society than Europe, economists and sociologists say that in recent decades the typical child starting out in poverty in continental Europe (or in Canada) has had a better chance at prosperity. Miles Corak, an economist for Canada’s national statistical agency who edited a recent Cambridge University Press book on mobility in Europe and North America, tweaked dozens of studies of the U.S., Canada and European countries to make them comparable. “The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied,” he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so.
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### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/26 "2018-07-07T17:05:50Z")
> [@drewder](#):
>
> Sure they do, most of their dreams start with coming to America.
All the babies we’ve snatched in the last few months? Their parents came here hoping for new beginnings and a better life for their children.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/27 "2018-07-07T23:02:37Z")
Not only does Japanese popular culture push the idea of dreams, it seems to do it _better_ than USA culture. Sports manga especially run on the idea of a main character pushing for excellence in a specific narrow field. It’s a storytelling trope, but I suppose it does show up in real life as well.
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### Author:  [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/28 "2018-07-07T23:20:25Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#):
>
> I think their are many places with little potential for social mobility so there is that.
>
> In some places with cradle to grave welfare, there is little need to be above anyone else so less of a desire to push yourself in school to obtain say an advanced degree or training if it only leads to a career with less to show for it.
This illustrates the dark side of the American dream as a shared aspiration. It’s not enough to realize your dreams, you must do so _on your own,_ through Horatio-Algerian pluck and hard work. If you fail, it’s entirely a moral shortcoming of your own.
**2Bits,** is that part of what your were asking?
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### Author:  [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)
#### Post date: [July 7, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/29 "2018-07-07T23:55:40Z")
> [@2Bits](#):
>
> It seems that here in the U.S. a day can’t go by without hearing/ reading about people’s “dreams.” (Not the ones that occur during sleep. The “achieving or not achieving one’s dreams” sort of dreams.)
>
> Is that a component of any other culture?
No. We doze under grapevines in the sun to the sound of lazily plucked guitars and think idly of broad-hipped women.
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### Author:  [@Danger\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger_Man)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/30 "2018-07-08T01:15:15Z")
In the Nordic countries we don’t have dreams. Instead we have the law of Jante.
> **[Law of Jante](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante)**
>
> The Law of Jante (YAN-tuh, Danish: Janteloven \[ˈjæntəˌlɔwˀən, -lɒwˀ-\])\[note 1\] is a code of conduct created in fiction by the Danish-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose and has been assumed by some to explain the egalitarian nature of Nordic countries.
> The attitudes were first formulated in the form of the ten rules in Sandemose's satirical novel A Fugitive Crosses His Tracks (En flyktning krysser sitt spor, 1933), but the attitudes themselves are older. Sandemose portrays the fictional small Dani...
In all seriousness, I think becoming rich is far less common as a dream here than in many other countries. Lots of people are content with a middle class lifestyle and seek to actualize in other ways. I don’t hear much talk about wanting to retire early either.
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### Author:  [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/31 "2018-07-08T01:52:34Z")
Inside every non-American is an American trying to get out.
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### Author:  [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/32 "2018-07-08T03:35:13Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#):
>
> Inside every non-American is an American trying to get out.
I wouldn’t have thought there’d be room.
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### Author:  [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/33 "2018-07-08T06:31:10Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#):
>
> In the Nordic countries we don’t have dreams. Instead we have the law of Jante.
> [Law of Jante - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante)
> In all seriousness, I think becoming rich is far less common as a dream here than in many other countries. Lots of people are content with a middle class lifestyle and seek to actualize in other ways…
This is fascinating, and I think it’s what the OP wanted , despite the rather clumsy phrasing in the title of the thread.
I note that so far in the thread, several references have been made using the phrase “the American Dream”.
But there has been no mention of any “French Dream” or “English Dream”, etc.
And that’s the point of the OP, I think.
“The American Dream” is a well-known phrase in American language and culture, and a deep part of the American psyche. It may be unattainable for many, but it’s still a goal which most people want to pursue.
And I don’t know of any other country which makes such an issue over the concept.
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### Author:  [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/34 "2018-07-08T09:15:14Z")
> [@Penfeather](#):
>
> I wouldn’t have thought there’d be room.
A little while back I bought a plastic cover for my keyboard, just for moments like these when I unexpectedly snort coffee all over my laptop.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/35 "2018-07-08T14:03:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> I do wonder if east Asians cultures ‘dream’ about having high socioeconomic status, but other cultures like those of costa Rica or scandanavia ‘dream’ about self actualization and personal fulfillment.
>
> Do some cultures ‘dream’ about the beautiful trophy spouse while in others you ‘dream’ about someone nice and caring, even if they aren’t much to look at?
Doubt it, for all of those. Both because the “beautiful trophy spouse” generally refers to a female hanging on the arm of a male so that even when you have a woman with more money than God marrying a much-younger guy, “beautiful trophy” isn’t necessarily part of his attractive ([example](https://www.diarioabierto.es/234489/alba-mas-de-un-millon-de-euros-por-repartir)) and because all of your examples can go together: whether someone emphasizes “I wanna be rich/famous” or “I wanna date/fuck/marry beautiful people” or “I wanna be happy” depends on the individual.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/36 "2018-07-08T14:43:42Z")
> [@chappachula](#):
>
> “The American Dream” is a well-known phrase in American language and culture, and a deep part of the American psyche.
Yet kind of fluid and subjective in meaning depending who says it and when.
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### Author:  [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/37 "2018-07-08T18:46:39Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#):
>
> This illustrates the dark side of the American dream as a shared aspiration. It’s not enough to realize your dreams, you must do so _on your own,_ through Horatio-Algerian pluck and hard work. If you fail, it’s entirely a moral shortcoming of your own.
>
> **2Bits,** is that part of what your were asking?
Somewhat. I expected more responses along the lines of Dangerman’s. I also wondered if in other societies the notion of dreams (“aspirations”) had been co-opted by marketing and advertising to the degree I feel it has here in the U.S.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/38 "2018-07-08T18:52:49Z")
> [@2Bits](#):
>
> I also wondered if in other societies the notion of dreams (“aspirations”) had been co-opted by marketing and advertising to the degree I feel it has here in the U.S.
You’re making my head hurt. What else do you expect marketing and ads to be based on? The whole worldwide advertising/marketing industry is built on getting people to [del]think[/del]believe they’ll feel better / look smarter / get more and better sex / have their partner admire them and treat them nicer / get better results therefore have a better house-more time-a higher salary if they buy our! Shiny! New! Product! (now with little blue dots).
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/39 "2018-07-08T18:59:38Z")
> [@chappachula](#):
>
> This is fascinating, and I think it’s what the OP wanted , despite the rather clumsy phrasing in the title of the thread.
> I note that so far in the thread, several references have been made using the phrase “the American Dream”.
> But there has been no mention of any “French Dream” or “English Dream”, etc.
A lot of that has to do with language differences: that other people use expressions which are not literal translations of the ones you are used to is not a linguistic bug but a feature. In Spanish we talk of _hacer las Américas_ to refer to “migrate for economic reasons, make enough while young enough to return and either set up shop or live off the savings”: no mention of the word “dream” (_sueño_(n) or _soñar_(v)) but the expression does refer to a specific and well-defined family of aspirations. In recent years we even have people from _las Américas_ who come to Spain to _hacer las Américas_ here 🙂 One of the biggest cultural differences between Spain and the US is that Americans seem to consider it insulting that someone would migrate there for economic reasons, or that someone who’s there might want to return home, whereas most people here see it as normal and generally acceptable (our legal procedures are a lot less open than the general public’s opinion).
I’ve seen references in multiple languages to “the X dream” where X is a location and the dream in question involves migrating there for economic reasons and staying; IOW, it’s a transplantation of “the American dream”. OTOH, “the European dream” refers to the idea of improving Europe (which can mean the continent’s nation-states or the EU) through international collaboration: it’s a collective dream, not an individual one.
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### Author:  [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)
#### Post date: [July 8, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-non-americans-have-dreams/817383/40 "2018-07-08T19:42:44Z")
> [@Nava](#):
>
> You’re making my head hurt. What else do you expect marketing and ads to be based on? The whole worldwide advertising/marketing industry is built on getting people to [del]think[/del]believe they’ll feel better / look smarter / get more and better sex / have their partner admire them and treat them nicer / get better results therefore have a better house-more time-a higher salary if they buy our! Shiny! New! Product! (now with little blue dots).
So sorry about your head!
I do understand how marketing works. For over the 50+ years I’ve been immersed in what we get in the United Sates. The specific focus on non-specific dreams/aspirations seems a recent phenomenon. I was wondering how widespread it was.
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