# "Do not fire unless fired upon first" - suitable for policing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2015, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110 "2015-01-06T09:21:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/21 "2015-01-06T15:56:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > “Don’t shoot if the suspect has a weapon like a knife and you’re twenty feet away.” Good way to get yourself knifed. I’m 52 years old, arthritic, and a I had stroke…but from 20 feet I will be on you and knifing the holy living shit out of you before you get your gun out of the holster. Even if you start with a drawn gun, I am still quite likely going to cut you up very badly unless you shoot quickly and well. Younger, fitter, meaner guys who may also be chemically aggression-enhanced will make your life even worse. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/22 "2015-01-06T15:57:44Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > How exactly is that determined? If someone is resisting, then they’re a threat. Running or resisting is always threatening to police, at that point it becomes a physical engagement. And has resisting worked? Have the cops ever thought, “he’s resisting (or running or fighting) so he must be innocent. He’s so adamant I guess I better just let him go.” It NEVER is that way and it always escalates the situation, and can even endanger others all around. > Everyone that is stopped has the potential to be lethally armed. It’s on them to make the police feel they can be trusted and running, fighting, resisting should not be tolerated. Running is not a deadly threat. Resisting arrest _can_ be, but almost always isn’t. When you shoot someone who is running from you, that’s called murder. When you shoot someone who is wiggling around on the ground for not being submissive enough, that’s called murder. Stop advocating and defending murder. EDIT: Running can be an issue if you know the person killed or harmed somebody. Fleeing felons who cops reasonably believe will harm others can legally be shot. But most fleeing suspects aren’t murderers, and you have to chase them or let them go. Because shooting them would be murder. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/23 "2015-01-06T16:07:44Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Everyone that is stopped has the potential to be lethally armed. It’s on them to make the police feel they can be trusted and running, fighting, resisting should not be tolerated. There’s your problem right there. Cops have, and have always had, a pretty expansive list of things they figure they shouldn’t have to “tolerate” from Joe Blow Citizen. The list gets even more expansive, with greater cop-administered penalties, when Joe Blow Citizen isn’t white and prosperous. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/24 "2015-01-06T16:19:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Under what specific circumstances does “the military” use this rule? Starfleet uses that rule! And everybody knows that television never lies to us. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/25 "2015-01-06T16:22:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Starfleet uses that rule! And everybody knows that television never lies to us. Or porn. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/26 "2015-01-06T16:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Running is not a deadly threat. Resisting arrest can be, but almost always isn’t. When you shoot someone who is running from you, that’s called murder. When you shoot someone who is wiggling around on the ground for not being submissive enough, that’s called murder. Stop advocating and defending murder. There’s no way to know if running is a threat. Resisting arrest is always a threat. If someone is wiggling around on the ground, they probably haven’t been forthcoming about being armed or not. It’s not up to police to risk guessing. Again, my point is: We’ve chosen to live in guntopia (coined by someone in another thread) and this is one of the consequences. Everyone will be considered armed until they prove to police otherwise. Police say stop, you stop. Anything less becomes too risky for the police. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/27 "2015-01-06T16:33:00Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > This is madness. Running means they’re not a threat and resisting does not imply they’re a threat either. Use the force necessary to arrest someone and no more. And fleeing suspects who aren’t murderers? Chase them, but don’t shoot. > > I don’t understand why “don’t shoot people who aren’t a threat” is even in question, to be honest. It’s not a difficult concept. And that is what happens thousands of times a day in this country. When there is an aberration from that or a perceived aberration it makes national news. Unfortunately you are lucky if the decision time between shoot/don’t shoot can be measured in seconds in most cases. Most of the time it’s a fraction of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/28 "2015-01-06T16:33:06Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > There’s no way to know if running is a threat. Resisting arrest is always a threat. If someone is wiggling around on the ground, they probably haven’t been forthcoming about being armed or not. It’s not up to police to risk guessing. Are you saying that, after the police taze somebody, if he’s writhing on the ground, that’s when they should pull out their guns and shoot him, just in case he’s got a gun? You do realize that, after being tazed, _everybody_ writhes on the ground? That’s kind of the entire point of tazing somebody: to make them do that, instead of whatever else they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/29 "2015-01-06T16:44:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you saying that, after the police taze somebody, if he’s writhing on the ground, that’s when they should pull out their guns and shoot him, just in case he’s got a gun? Have they determined if the suspect is unarmed? If the suspect is resisting a pat down and won’t let it be determined if he’s armed or not, then yes, he goes down. If you’re choosing to resist, you better allow the cops to determine you’re unarmed first. This, as you can imagine, rarely happens. It needs to be spelled out clearly that it’s up to you, the perp, to allow the police to trust you are not armed. I don’t see many cases where a suspect allows the cops to pat down and then starts resisting. But if that happens, then yea, the cops shouldn’t shoot. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/30 "2015-01-06T17:09:53Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Have they determined if the suspect is unarmed? If the suspect is resisting a pat down and won’t let it be determined if he’s armed or not, then yes, he goes down. > > If you’re choosing to resist, you better allow the cops to determine you’re unarmed first. This, as you can imagine, rarely happens. It needs to be spelled out clearly that it’s up to you, the perp, to allow the police to trust you are not armed. I don’t see many cases where a suspect allows the cops to pat down and then starts resisting. But if that happens, then yea, the cops shouldn’t shoot. I’m not clear on your argument here. Are you suggesting that any suspect who resists arrest, in any way, should be considered armed and dangerous and should therefore be shot? I’m certain that’s not what you’re saying, but it’s coming across that way to me. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/31 "2015-01-06T17:23:55Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m not clear on your argument here. Are you suggesting that any suspect who resists arrest, in any way, should be considered armed and dangerous and should therefore be shot? I’m certain that’s not what you’re saying, but it’s coming across that way to me. It sounds like that to me, too, although I am not am certain as you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/32 "2015-01-06T17:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that any suspect who resists arrest, in any way, should be considered armed and dangerous and should therefore be shot? I’m certain that’s not what you’re saying, but it’s coming across that way to me. Close. I’m saying any suspect should be considered armed and dangerous, and if they’re resisting without proving to police they’re not armed, and they get shot, there should be no reprimanding of police. That the default position is: If you’re going to resist, EXPECT to get shot. It’s up to you, the suspect to gain the trust of the police and prove you’re unarmed first. Especially if you’re intending on escalating the situation. Such is the consequence of living in an armed society. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/33 "2015-01-06T17:39:06Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Close. I’m saying any suspect should be considered armed and dangerous, and if they’re resisting without proving to police they’re not armed, and they get shot, there should be no reprimanding of police. That the default position is: If you’re going to resist, EXPECT to get shot. It’s up to you, the suspect to gain the trust of the police and prove you’re unarmed first. Especially if you’re intending on escalating the situation. Such is the consequence of living in an armed society. Right, because that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing is just a line of writing on a piece of paper. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/34 "2015-01-06T17:47:25Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Close. I’m saying any suspect should be considered armed and dangerous, and if they’re resisting without proving to police they’re not armed, and they get shot, there should be no reprimanding of police. That the default position is: If you’re going to resist, EXPECT to get shot. It’s up to you, the suspect to gain the trust of the police and prove you’re unarmed first. Especially if you’re intending on escalating the situation. Such is the consequence of living in an armed society. Fuck that shit. You’re essentially giving the police the authority to execute anybody they choose. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/35 "2015-01-06T17:50:16Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Close. I’m saying any suspect should be considered armed and dangerous, and if they’re resisting without proving to police they’re not armed, and they get shot, there should be no reprimanding of police. That the default position is: If you’re going to resist, EXPECT to get shot. It’s up to you, the suspect to gain the trust of the police and prove you’re unarmed first. Especially if you’re intending on escalating the situation. Such is the consequence of living in an armed society. Whose side are you really on here? NOBODY says default police encounter = getting shot. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/36 "2015-01-06T18:02:29Z")
Look, we’ve chosen to be society with armed citizens. We have a right to keep a gun and there’s entities that want that right unrestricted and lobbies for such. Bad guys have guns, so good guys have guns, and it recommended everyone should have a gun if they desire. OK. I look around my office, and knowing we’re a driving society, and we have millions of cars and millions of miles of streets and highways, it would be stupid of me to assume everyone here walked to work. Yet a cop stops someone and they’re supposed to conclude this person is unarmed until they pull out a weapon. That’s ridiculous. In our armed society, everyone should be presumed armed by police. And thus, it is up to them, the suspect, to comply with police during a stop and prove they’re not armed and not a threat. Anything less is asking for police to take on an unnecessary risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/37 "2015-01-06T18:08:07Z")
So if I get pulled over for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, in your world, the police should do that “get out of the car with your hands up, now lay down in the street with your hands behind your head” routine because it should be assumed that I’m armed and dangerous. What. The. Fuck. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/38 "2015-01-06T18:19:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So if I get pulled over for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, in your world, the police should do that “get out of the car with your hands up, now lay down in the street with your hands behind your head” routine because it should be assumed that I’m armed and dangerous. > > What. The. Fuck. A patdown is not normally part of a traffic stop. I am pretty sure he is referring to situations where you are being taken into custody. ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/39 "2015-01-06T18:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > So if I get pulled over for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, in your world, the police should do that “get out of the car with your hands up, now lay down in the street with your hands behind your head” routine because it should be assumed that I’m armed and dangerous. Yes. Just this Saturday night in my town a cop pulled someone over for suspected DWI. The suspect shot the cop as he was walking towards the car, then fled and is still at large. The presumption of innocent should only be presumed AFTER it is determined a suspect is unarmed. When a suspect does anything to impede this determination process, they should know they’re doing so at a huge risk of being shot. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/40 "2015-01-06T18:27:42Z")
Why not just have the cops go house to house and execute everybody in America then? After all, they’re potentially armed and could potentially be dangerous, better shoot them now just to be sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110.md?page=3)