# "Do not fire unless fired upon first" - suitable for policing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2015, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110 "2015-01-06T09:21:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/61 "2015-01-06T20:58:54Z")
They caught the guy who shot the officer during a routine traffic stop. Here you can see what transpired from the officer’s lapel cam: [http://krqe.com/2015/01/06/police-arrest-suspect-accused-of-shooting-officer/](http://krqe.com/2015/01/06/police-arrest-suspect-accused-of-shooting-officer/) How could this have been prevented? What steps could officer Golson have taken to minimize or eliminate the risk involved in this traffic stop. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/62 "2015-01-06T20:59:29Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > The message our citizens need to carry with them from a young age is to cooperate with police and sort it out in front of a judge. Resisting, bullying, and being uncooperative when stopped by police can get you killed, and society generally will back the police because society understands the risks cops make when policing an armed society. But you can’t deny that many of the people who are saying that Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown and Eric Garner should have just obeyed the law and done what they were told are the same people who cheered for Cliven Bundy and called him a hero for standing his ground. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/63 "2015-01-06T21:05:19Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > So, statues quo? > > I really don’t have a problem with being second guessed as long as it’s semi-informed. Unfortunately way too many people come at it from a Hollywood colored version of reality. It makes every video of an arrest into an example of brutality. Too many people think that if 90 lbs Kate Beckett can put the cuffs on a 250 lbs guy with a quick ninja move then anyone can. When in fact trying to get cuffs on someone resisting (not even fighting) is one of the hardest things you can do and needs some measure of violent action. Or they talk about shooting a knife out of someone’s hand. Or using a taser in a deadly force situation. It’s the fact that even when a cop does everything in a correct and legal manner he’ll get crucified by those who have absolutely no idea how the job has to be done. Which is also why I usually stay out of these threads. Most people who reply already have their mind’s made up. Like you said, status quo ante. I’d love to find some mechanistic way of setting parameters for the authorization of force by police, sure. But I don’t see one that retains sufficient flexibility - which is desperately needed - to allow for real world circumstances. As it is, dashboard and lapel cameras and such to provide better post-event information as well as open and transparent post-event examinations are probably the best that can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/64 "2015-01-06T21:06:13Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Good way to get yourself knifed. I’m 52 years old, arthritic, and a I had stroke…but from 20 feet I will be on you and knifing the holy living shit out of you before you get your gun out of the holster. Even if you start with a drawn gun, I am still quite likely going to cut you up very badly unless you shoot quickly and well. Younger, fitter, meaner guys who may also be chemically aggression-enhanced will make your life even worse. I’ve actually had experience facing people with knives. I’ve handled it without ever getting stabbed or having to shoot anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/65 "2015-01-06T21:29:10Z")
What experience was that? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/66 "2015-01-06T21:53:16Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Also, in addition to questioning the evidence, I’m not so sure he needed to take 8 shots. Once the guy is bleeding on the ground, he is no longer a threat. He could have stopped at that point and called an ambulance. But that’s not something I’d judge anyone for. If you’re in danger to the point where you have a legitimate need to use your weapon, I’m not going to question shooting until the threat is completely neutralized. My understanding is that once the adrenalin takes over you pretty much empty your clip into whatever your firing at whether you mean to or not. There was an (NPR?) interviewer who took part in a police training simulation after firing at a virtual attacker he was asked how many shots he fired and guessed two or three when in actuality is was 9. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/67 "2015-01-06T22:50:55Z")
The OP’s premise might save lives of both cops and ‘robbers’. Once that is know it is know to both sides. It may cause a tragic brief upturn of dead cops but over time and with due respect to these fallen who have paved the way, potentially less deaths all around. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/68 "2015-01-06T23:11:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The OP’s premise might save lives of both cops and ‘robbers’. Once that is know it is know to both sides. It may cause a tragic brief upturn of dead cops but over time and with due respect to these fallen who have paved the way, potentially less deaths all around. How would a criminal who is armed and already predisposed to shoot a cop be less likely to shoot when he knows he has at least one free shot before there is any return fire? It is not logical. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/69 "2015-01-06T23:18:49Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > How would a criminal who is armed and already predisposed to shoot a cop be less likely to shoot when he knows he has at least one free shot before there is any return fire? It is not logical. Maybe it’s a Darwinian process by which the ones who are bad shots are weeded out when they miss their one free shot, and on the other side those cops who are able to dodge bullets and return fire accurately the first time will come to the fore. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/70 "2015-01-06T23:31:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Maybe it’s a Darwinian process by which the ones who are bad shots are weeded out when they miss their one free shot, and on the other side those cops who are able to dodge bullets and return fire accurately the first time will come to the fore. 😛 I will freely admit I am not as big a badass as Andrew Jackson. > [@](#): > > The controversy surrounding their marriage remained a sore point for Jackson, who deeply resented attacks on his wife’s honor. By May 1806, Charles Dickinson had published an attack on Jackson in the local newspaper, and it resulted in a written challenge from Jackson to a duel. Since Dickinson was considered an expert shot, Jackson determined it would be best to let Dickinson turn and fire first, hoping that his aim might be spoiled in his quickness; Jackson would wait and take careful aim at Dickinson. Dickinson did fire first, hitting Jackson in the chest. Under the rules of dueling, Dickinson had to remain still as Jackson took aim and shot and killed him. However, the bullet that struck Jackson was so close to his heart (much like Rachel herself) that it could never be safely removed. Jackson’s behavior in the duel outraged men of honor in Tennessee, who called it a brutal, cold-blooded killing and saddled Jackson with a reputation as a fearful, violent, vengeful man. He became a social outcast. Yeah, no thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/71 "2015-01-06T23:51:39Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > How would a criminal who is armed and already predisposed to shoot a cop be less likely to shoot when he knows he has at least one free shot before there is any return fire? It is not logical. Why do criminals shoot at cops? Right now, an armed crook who encounters an armed cop has three options. a) Run, and have a high chance of being gunned down. b) Talk to the cop, and risk being gunned down by the trigger happy cop. c) Shoot, and risk being gunned down if not successful. With a second shot rule, the crook’s options are. a) Run, with no chance of being shot. b) Talk to the cop, with no chance of being shot. c) Shoot, and risk being gunned down if not successful. Looking at it logically, a) and b) have become a safer bet than before. Why do you think option c), shooting will become more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/72 "2015-01-07T00:04:19Z")
comma after shooting ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/73 "2015-01-07T00:21:58Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What experience was that? I worked in prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/74 "2015-01-07T01:15:23Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Why do criminals shoot at cops? > > Right now, an armed crook who encounters an armed cop has three options. > > a) Run, and have a high chance of being gunned down. > b) Talk to the cop, and risk being gunned down by the trigger happy cop. > c) Shoot, and risk being gunned down if not successful. > > With a second shot rule, the crook’s options are. > > a) Run, with no chance of being shot. > b) Talk to the cop, with no chance of being shot. > c) Shoot, and risk being gunned down if not successful. > > Looking at it logically, a) and b) have become a safer bet than before. Why do you think option c), shooting will become more likely. Because you are using facts not in evidence. Almost ever single instance of a criminal surviving after starting a shoot out with police the criminal states he shot because he didn’t want to go to jail. Not because he thinks he is going to get gunned down. As it is most of the time the suspect gets the first shot off since he knows he has a gun and knows he is going to shoot before the police officer knows. Obviously the overwhelming majority of those that are arrested for weapons charges do not get gunned down by police. Unfortunately I don’t have time to sift through all the crime statistics. I was able to see quickly that for instance in 1993 there were 262,300 arrests in which weapons possession was the was serious crime. Do you think a couple hundred thousand were killed by police? Criminals shoot cops because they don’t want to go to jail. A can’t shoot first policy makes that more enticing. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/75 "2015-01-07T01:39:45Z")
Carlos Rivera-Vega Puerto Rico Police Department, Puerto Rico He and other members of the Mayagüez Drugs Division had gone to the Concordia Public Housing complex, in Mayagüez, during the course of the investigation. While they were on scene a resident walked up to them and began questioning the officers why they were at the complex. The man suddenly produced a .357 caliber handgun and opened fire, striking Agent Rivera-Vega in the abdomen two times. Cory Wride Utah County Sheriff’s Office, Utah A subject near the scene opened fire with a high-powered rifle, fatally wounding Sergeant Wride before he was able to exit his patrol car. Sergeant Wride had given dispatchers a description of the car before he was shot and another deputy spotted it a short time later. Jonathan Scott Pine Orange County Sheriff’s Office, Florida Deputy Sheriff Jonathan Pine was shot and killed while responding to reports of car break-ins in a gated community off of South Apopka Vineland Road. When deputies arrived shortly after 11:00 pm one subject fled on foot. Deputies located the subject shortly after midnight near the intersection of South Apopka Vineland Road and Westminster Abby Boulevard. The man began to flee on foot again and then fired several shots, striking Deputy Pine. John Hobbs Phoenix Police Department, Arizona Detective John Hobbs was shot and killed as he and other members of the Fugitive Apprehension Team attempted to serve a felony warrant on a man who had recently been released from prison. The subject fled in a vehicle and was pursued by the detectives until crashing at the intersection of 43rd Avenue and Bethany Home Road. The subject then fled on foot. He opened fire on the detectives as they pursued him, striking Detective Hobbs and a second detective. Despite being mortally wounded, Detective Hobbs was able to return fire and fatally shot the subject. Joaquín Correa-Ortega Puerto Rico Police Department, Puerto Rico Agent Joaquín Correa-Ortega was shot and killed while conducting an undercover arms purchase in a wooded area off of PR-924, in the Pitaya neighborhood in Humacao. He and another agent were at an illegal fair frequently used to conduct the illegal trade of vehicles, horses, and other items. They were in the process of conducting a transaction with several subjects when they were fired upon. Agent Correa-Ortega was killed and the other agent was shot in the head and wounded. Jason Crisp United States Department of Agriculture - Forest Service Law Enforcement and Investigations, U.S. Government Officer Jason Crisp and his canine, Maros, were shot and killed in Burke County, North Carolina, while participating in the manhunt for a subject who had committed two murders. Officers from several agencies were searching for the 38-year-old subject after the bodies of the subject’s parents were located in their home in the 5000 block of Fish Hatchery Road. The subject had previously served one year in prison on a manslaughter charge for a murder he committed in 1997. Officer Crisp and several other officers located the subject in the area of Fish Hatchery Road and Pea Ridge Road and were fired upon. Officer Crisp and K9 Maros were fatally wounded during the exchange of gunfire. Ricky Del Fiorentino Mendocino County Sheriff’s Office, California Deputy Sheriff Ricky Del Fiorentino was shot and killed while searching for a subject who had abducted two people in Oregon earlier in the day and then shot at a store owner near Leggett, California. Officers from multiple agencies were searching the area when Deputy Del Fiorentino came across the subject’s car on a dirt road in the town of Cleone, near MacKerricher State Park. The subject opened fire on Deputy Del Fiorentino from ambush, firing multiple rounds and fatally wounding him before he had a chance to exit his vehicle. Robert German Windermere Police Department, Florida Police Officer Robert German was shot and killed while investigating two suspicious people in the area of Conroy-Windermere Road and Horizon Circle at approximately 4:00 am. When an Orange County sheriff’s deputy and an Orlando police officer arrived at the location they discovered that Officer German had been shot. Moments later they heard additional gunshots in the area and used their patrol cars to shield Officer German so he could be extracted from the scene. He was transported to Orlando Regional Medical Center where he succumbed to his wounds. Mark Mayo United States Navy Security Forces, U.S. Government Master-at-Arms 2nd Class Mark Mayo was shot and killed aboard the USS Mahan by a civilian who had boarded the ship while it was docked at Naval Station Norfolk’s Pier 1. The subject was confronted by the Petty Officer of the Watch on the ship’s quarterdeck. During the ensuing struggle the subject was able to disarm the officer and then fatally shot MA2 Mayo, who had responded to assist the officer in subduing the subject. The man was then shot and killed by other responding security forces officers. Alexander Thalmann New Bern Police Department, North Carolina Police Officer Alexander Thalmann succumbed to a gunshot wound sustained three days earlier while conducting a subject stop near the intersection of Oak Street and Elm Street at approximately 11:45 pm. He was speaking to the man, who had been riding a bicycle, and called for backup. As he continued to speak with the subject the man suddenly fled on foot and then opened fire, striking Officer Thalmann in the face and a second officer in the leg. Other officers were able to return fire and killed the subject. David W. Smith Johnson City Police Department, New York Police Officer Dave Smith was shot and killed with his own service weapon after responding to a disturbance call at a business, at 32 Harrison Street, at approximately 7:00 am. An employee at the business began arguing with other employees and assaulted one of them upon arriving at work. As Officer Smith arrived at the scene the employee ran out of the building waving his arms, and attacked Officer Smith before he was able to exit his patrol car or radio for help. The subject was able to disarm Officer Smith and shot him while he was still in the patrol car. Michael J. Seversen Polk County Sheriff’s Office, Wisconsin Deputy Sheriff Mike Seversen succumbed to complications of a gunshot wound sustained on April 19th, 1991, as he and Deputy Sheriff Allen Albee, of the Burnett County Sheriff’s Office, attempted to arrest a subject wanted for a shooting in Minnesota the previous day. The subject’s car was located near Webster Elementary School, in Burnett County. Deputy Seversen responded to the scene when the Burnett County Sheriff’s Office requested additional assistance. Several deputies, including Deputy Seversen and Deputy Albee, were approaching the subject near the school when the man opened fire with a .32 caliber handgun. Deputy Albee was killed and Deputy Seversen suffered a wound to his spinal cord, causing him to become paralyzed from the neck down. Gabriel Rich Alaska State Troopers, Alaska Patrick Scott Johnson Alaska State Troopers, Alaska Trooper Gabe Rich and Sergeant Scott Johnson were shot and killed while investigating reports that a person had brandished a firearm in the village of Tanana several days earlier. Both troopers had gone to a home on Front Street to speak to the suspect. At some point during the investigation they were fatally shot inside the home. Ok that was only through May of last year and only gunfire deaths. It was a bad year. I really don’t want to keep listing more. Do you really think the number of police deaths would go down if you forced them to wait to be shot at? Is there any indication in any of those that I listed that the new ROE would not have a horrible effect? It makes no logical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110/76 "2015-01-07T02:20:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I worked in prisons. That is experience that is worth consideration. Were the perpetrators trying to stab you or other inmates? There is a difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-fire-unless-fired-upon-first-suitable-for-policing/709110.md?page=3)