# Do not threaten suicide in front of your math tutor, please. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684 "2005-05-06T13:28:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/61 "2005-05-08T20:12:05Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > It’s probably quite easy to live a world where people commit suicide because they are weak, and because you have not committed suicide, you are therefore not weak. Confirming the natural order of things _to her_. See her posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/62 "2005-05-08T20:15:06Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Confirming the natural order of things _to her_. See her posts in this thread. I know. I was referring to her attitude. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/63 "2005-05-08T20:21:32Z")
Well, according to **catsix** , she knows all, and everyone else is just a whiny little moron who should just suck it up. Got raped? Yeah, well, you know, suck it up. Have to deal with sexism? Shut up, because saying it’s offensive to be harassed is just male-bashing hate. Misogyny, rape, harassment, depression-none of that exists, in **catsix** ’s world. And if it does, the victim had it coming. See, because SHE always gets through it! Everyone piles shit on her, oh, poor **catsix** , but SHE’s tough, she NEVER gets depressed, or put upon, because she is soooo perfect and we’re all a bunch of morons. We should all get guns, because anyone who doesn’t have one is an anti-gun zealot who is trying to take her guns away. We should all eat meat, because vegetarians are whiny losers. We should lock our children up so they don’t come into her vision because children are horrid. Oh, and most women are whiny and stupid and there was never a need for feminism, because all we had to do was be like **catsix** , and just hate our own twats and have the stones to just be an angry automaton! See, there you go. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/64 "2005-05-08T20:27:47Z")
> [@](#): > > **Contrapuntal** said: > Anyone wonder why folks around catsix have this nasty habit of killing themselves? Two people that I knew killed themselves. If you’re saying that’s my fault, then I suppose it’s obvious which of us is the bigger asshole. > [@](#): > > Well, perhaps, if true. After her first two anecdotes I was a little suspicious; now I think she’s just pulling them out of her ass. Because it’s so impossible that I knew more than one person who killed himself? Do you have any evidence whatsoever that I lied? > [@](#): > > I can’t see how she would take offense, however, as the suicides would just be confirming the natural order of things. I may well respect that it was their right to end their own lives, but that does not mean I miss them any less. You have mistaken my belief that they had a right to do what they did for a lack of caring that they died. I miss them _every day_. I just don’t believe I had any right to make them stay here. > [@](#): > > **Raygun99** said: > It’s probably quite easy to live a world where people commit suicide because they are weak, and because you have not committed suicide, you are therefore not weak. Did I say anything about being weak? My friends are gone, and I will always miss them. I don’t think they were weak. I don’t even think they chose wisely. But they made their own choices, and as much awful as I know it is to grieve for someone you love, it was not my place to choose for them. > [@](#): > > **Guinastasia** said: > Well, according to catsix, she knows all, and everyone else is just a whiny little moron who should just suck it up. Nice imagination you’ve got there. Maybe you should go outside and get some air. > [@](#): > > Misogyny, rape, harassment, depression-none of that exists, in catsix’s world. And if it does, the victim had it coming. Maybe you ought to try to attack me for something I actually said instead of building this ridiculous strawman. > [@](#): > > See, there you go. Well now I know where to go to buy scarecrows. Good one, **Guin**. But your parody of me is not reality. You do need to get out more. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/65 "2005-05-08T20:38:11Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Because it’s so impossible that I knew more than one person who killed himself? > > Do you have any evidence whatsoever that I lied? None at all. I just happen to think that you are full of shit. I don’t believe the story about the guy who cracked a joke and was committed for a month as a result, and I find it oddly convenient that you are able to produce dead acquaintances as needed. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/66 "2005-05-08T20:43:48Z")
As opposed to just tossing them into threads where they’re really not relevant? ‘Oh yeah, that movie was really great and did you know that this guy I knew for like 15 years killed himself just before his 21st birthday?’ I don’t talk about that shit all the time. It’s not something I think should be a part of every conversation, nor would I want it to, since after all _it’s still fucking painful_. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/67 "2005-05-08T20:49:45Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > As opposed to just tossing them into threads where they’re really not relevant? No, as opposed to bringing them up one at a time in relevant threads. > [@](#): > > I don’t talk about that shit all the time. It’s not something I think should be a part of every conversation, nor would I want it to, since after all _it’s still fucking painful_. Painful perhaps, bit you would still \*\*rather they be dead \*\* than have anyone try to save them from death. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/68 "2005-05-08T20:55:07Z")
> [@](#): > > **Contrapuntal** said: > Painful perhaps, bit you would still rather they be dead than have anyone try to save them from death. Because my desire to not cry at their graves was not as fucking important as whatever the hell made it too damn hard for them to keep living. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/69 "2005-05-08T21:01:49Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Because my desire to not cry at their graves was not as fucking important as whatever the hell made it too damn hard for them to keep living. There’s a law that punishes attempted suicide. Why do you suppose that is? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/70 "2005-05-08T21:03:56Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Because my desire to not cry at their graves was not as fucking important as whatever the hell made it too damn hard for them to keep living. Well that’s the thing. What if this “whatever the hell” were a **treatable disease**? And because of that disease they were not capable of **informed consent**? Would you let a drunk friend drive his car off a cliff because he was convinced it could fly? Would you withold critical information from him because “he has the right to do what he wants with his life”? Or would you attempt to restrain him? If so, I call bulllshit again again, because a depressed person is no more capable of making such a crucial decision than someone who is drunk. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/71 "2005-05-08T21:31:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **Rilchaim** said: > There’s a law that punishes attempted suicide. Why do you suppose that is? I was under the impression that it had to do with life insurance. > [@](#): > > **Contrapuntal** said: > Well that’s the thing. What if this “whatever the hell” were a treatable disease? That’s not up to me. My grandfather, who I’ve mentioned here before, died of esophageal cancer that was 100% treatable because he _chose not to be treated_ for it. That was his choice. And before you accuse me of not giving a damn about him either, I miss him too. > [@](#): > > If so, I call bulllshit again again, because a depressed person is no more capable of making such a crucial decision than someone who is drunk. I don’t buy that. No matter how many times you or anyone else here tells me that, it’ll still seem like the same goddamn thing. People with physical diseases are capable of deciding they don’t want treatment and deciding that they will allow the disease to kill them. People with mental diseases are incapable of making choices for themselves. That, to me, is horse shit. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/72 "2005-05-08T21:50:01Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I don’t buy that. No matter how many times you or anyone else here tells me that, it’ll still seem like the same goddamn thing. People with physical diseases are capable of deciding they don’t want treatment and deciding that they will allow the disease to kill them. People with mental diseases are incapable of making choices for themselves. That, to me, is horse shit. You don’t see the difference between a physical ailment and one that affects the very process of decision making in the brain? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/73 "2005-05-08T22:05:10Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > That’s not up to me. My grandfather, who I’ve mentioned here before, died of esophageal cancer that was 100% treatable because he _chose not to be treated_ for it. That was his choice. And before you accuse me of not giving a damn about him either, I miss him too. I completely agree with his decision not to be treated, assuming he was informed of all his options. > [@](#): > > I don’t buy that. No matter how many times you or anyone else here tells me that, it’ll still seem like the same goddamn thing. People with physical diseases are capable of deciding they don’t want treatment and deciding that they will allow the disease to kill them. People with mental diseases are incapable of making choices for themselves. That, to me, is horse shit. No one is claiming that they are “incapable of making choices for themselves” That is a strawman. Obviously they can make choices if they choose to kill themselves. The point is that they are ill-equipped to make to make **crucial choices**. People with mental diseases\*\* by definition \*\* do not have full use of their reasoning power. if you don’t see that then you are just being stubborn. Let’s take your physical/mental analogy to a logical extreme. Would you deny aid to someone who is **physically** unable to save himself? Say, someone who is drowning because he cannot swim? If not, why deny it to someone who is \*\*mentally \*\* unable to save himself? Would you restrain the drunk friend from driving his car off a cliff? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/74 "2005-05-08T22:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Contrapuntal** said: > The point is that they are ill-equipped to make to make crucial choices. People with mental diseases by definition do not have full use of their reasoning power. And you’re saying that because you think that the desire to commit suicide indicates that a person does ‘not have full use of their reasoning power’? It’s really convenient to say ‘No they don’t really want to die, they just can’t reason.’ > [@](#): > > Would you deny aid to someone who is physically unable to save himself? Say, someone who is drowning because he cannot swim? If not, why deny it to someone who is mentally unable to save himself? You’re talking about someone who wants help. I’m not. > [@](#): > > Would you restrain the drunk friend from driving his car off a cliff? If so, why? Not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/75 "2005-05-08T22:43:59Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > You’re talking about someone who wants help. I’m not. Actually, you don’t know that. Many suicide attempts are in fact “cries for help.” Should those folks be denied aid? > [@](#): > > Not the same thing. How about answering the fucking question? Then tell me why it is not the same thing. I am beginning to suspect that you are either being deliberateley obtuse or are congenitally so. Impaired is impaired. Is it absolutely outside your philosophy that a human being might be unable to make rational decisions because of a mental defect or condition? You have seen the testimonials in this thread. Do you refute them? Let me add mine. If a friend had not forced me to see a doctor I might well have killed myself several years ago. I have since been diagnosed with severe chronic depression and will likely be on medication the rest of my life, because I have a \*\*chemical inbalance in my brain. \*\* I have a physical condition that is treatable. In that respect it is exactly like your grandfather’s cancer with one important exception–his disease did not affect his ability to reason. Do you really not see that? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/76 "2005-05-08T22:47:33Z")
> [@](#): > > **Contrapuntal** said: > Actually, you don’t know that. Many suicide attempts are in fact “cries for help.” Should those folks be denied aid? This is always the opinion of the people who want to provide that ‘help.’ > [@](#): > > I have a physical condition that is treatable. In that respect it is exactly like your grandfather’s cancer with one important exception–his disease did not affect his ability to reason. Do you really not see that? So you’re saying that you shouldn’t have a choice about whether or not you’re medicated? Well, I don’t agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/77 "2005-05-08T22:54:36Z")
You know, I almost agree with \*\*catsix \*\*(someone shoot me, quick!). IF it can be reasonably demonstrated to mental and physical health professionals that your pain and suffering, mental \*or \*phsyical, are beyond your ability to deal with them and there is no adequate treatment, then I believe you should have the right to kill yourself. If you can present a coherent, logical and internally consistent rationalle for suicide, I’d be happy to not only allow it but to help prvide the painless means to do so. These are criteria which, to me, would indicate that you are exercising free will and not acting irrationally. But. That hasn’t been demonstrated here. And cannot be demonstrated until and unless the person talking about suicide speaks to a professional who can discuss treatment strategies with her. \*\*Humanist \*\*is not qualified to make the decision about whether this girl was of sound mind and body, nor if her decision is a rational one which should be respected. (Or, of course, if it’s even her actual decision, and not simply a sentence to blow off steam or a figure of speech like that in my first sentence.) Argue the ethics of allowing suicide all you want, **catsix** , but _this thread_ is about an unqualified individual alerting a qualified individual who can determine if intervention is needed and inform a person about their options - which may indeed, in my ethics book, include suicide. But not without examining her other options first. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/78 "2005-05-08T23:10:55Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > This is always the opinion of the people who want to provide that ‘help.’ Cite? > [@](#): > > So you’re saying that you shouldn’t have a choice about whether or not you’re medicated? Well, I don’t agree with you. You really are quite the little logician, aren’t you? I have no idea where you got that. I am medicated by choice. When I was diagnosed with depression no one forced me to accept the diagnosis or accept the treatment. Would you restrain a drunk friend from harming himself? It’s a yes/no question. Dig deep. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/79 "2005-05-08T23:18:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Would you restrain a drunk friend from harming himself? It’s a yes/no question. Dig deep. Yeh, go that extra inch! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684/80 "2005-05-08T23:34:12Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Would you restrain a drunk friend from harming himself? It’s a yes/no question. Dig deep. Or, more to the point, would you sit by while a friend with an infected toenail told you she was going to cut off her own leg at the knee because she was afraid of gangrene, or would you urge her to see a podiatrist about it for an antibiotic ointment or nail trim? Sure, cutting off your leg will get rid of the infection, but there are other safer and more appropriate treatments to try first, which can be discussed and chosen with the guidance of a qualified physician. Suicide may get rid of depression, but there are other safer and more appropriate treatments as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-not-threaten-suicide-in-front-of-your-math-tutor-please/302684.md?page=5)