Do other countries dehumanize criminals like we do in the US?

Great Debates
21

In my experience, that is the difference between those attorneys who become prosecutors and those who become criminal defense attorneys.

Prosecutors don’t seem to have empathy for those in prison. It is “those” people who did bad things and deserve what they get to protect “us” who do not break the law.

Defense attorneys have a more “but for the Grace of God, there go I” mentality where a few more wrong turns in our youth could have put us on that path, or perhaps we have family members on that road, or that some innocent people wrongfully convicted are suffering from it.

Although I am not in favor of making prison like a stay at the Ritz Carlton, there are many policies and procedures that are unnecessarily harsh and should be corrected.

22

In theory, you would never have anyone convicted of a crime who did not commit it, but that is not how the world works. There are certainly some percentage of people in prison for a crime they did not commit. What that percentage is can be debated, but to assume it is zero would be hopelessly naive.

So, knowing that there are at least some people in prison that do not deserve to be there, I find it only makes sense that prison not be any more harsh or inhuman than is necessary for the protection of the other prisoners and for society itself. It’s bad enough to know that there are people in jail who did nothing wrong, but to know that they are could be tortured or raped, or otherwise treated inhumanely can be really upsetting.

23

I think Asahi is mostly right. We are generally tougher and less sympathetic to prisoners and ex-cons than most other Western nations are. But we are not as bad as much of the rest of the world.

Here’s an articlehttp://www.economist.com/node/21563288 describing conditions in prisons throughout Latin America.

In brief prisons are overcrowded and dirty with few facilities, like medical care, for the inmates. In some places guards are just there to provide perimeter security and have minimal interaction with the prisoners. And in some places, like Mexico and Brazil, drug gangs essentially run the prison. I know that in Brazil at least it seems that a couple of times a year I read about prison riots/take-overs that result in the deaths of inmates and guards.

And it doesn’t seem that the people as a whole have much of a problem with that. One poll cited in the article, from 2008, found that 73% of the people thought prison conditions should be tougher.

The article does end on a hopeful note that at least some nations are trying to improve these conditions. This isn’t something that I follow much, but I don’t have a sense that things have changed too much.

24

I just finished reading The Sympathizer by Viet Thanh Nguyen. I would not have wanted to go through the experiences described in the last 15% of the book and this was what Vietnamese communists did unto their own red maoist-marxist brethren. “Reeducation”. Bloody fucking hell.

25

Even if a person is in prison because he is indeed guilty of a crime, that is not a reason to treat him unnecessarily harsh or inhumane. The punishment is the isolation from society and the restriction of free movement. It does not include beatings, rapes, insulting behavior from prison staff, or a denial of freedoms that have no relation to prison security (e.g. no smoking policies even outdoors).

26

I think part of that problem is money problem. In old days US prisons and jails had only one person per cell. Now days it is two or three people per cell.

And now two or three people per cell is being passed out to gym like prison like this.

The massive overcrowding and money problem we are worse now than before.

27

I agree, I am just saying that one more reason to treat prisoners humanely is that there are a non-zero number of them that are there unjustly. To then receive extra-judicial punishment on top of “unjust” punishment makes the entire concept of a justice system a bit of a farce.

Personally, I feel that the major focus of our justice system should be on rehabilitation, and helping those who have strayed from the social contract find their way back to being productive members of society, which involves very little torture and extrajudicial punishment.

28

Y’know, I bet stories like those could save the dying newspaper trade.

29

It has already been pointed out, but should be underlined: Norway has plenty of ordinary prisons as well. Bastøy and Halden are for prisoners on the cusp of being released back into society. They’re there to reacclimatize people who are judged fit to be there with ordinary life. It’s part rehabilitation, part reward for good behaviour and part investment in the future of the citizens who are kept there.

Ordinary Norwegian prisons are well kept, orderly and spacious by international standards. But there’s still cuffs, bars, checkpoints and guards with batons. Prison guard education in Norway is a 2 year fully paid study. (Police officer is 3 or more for specialists.) Officers are required to be quite fit, at least enough to handle physical confrontations, but the high level of education mostly keeps out the thugs.

The foundation for the way our prison system is set up is that we consider bereaving people of their freedom to be the biggest violation of individual integrity the state can be permitted to perform. (I expect the Gestapo’s activities under the WWII occupation and their horrible activities created this mindset.) Anything beyond that is slippery slope territory. Permitting casual cruelties like overcrowding, undernourishment, beatings or other power abuses against humans - even through negligence or incompetence - would reflect extremely negatively on the state.

30

Wow. Is there a brochure for that prison? I’ve stayed in hotels that were worse than that.

31

I meant to reply to this post a while ago, but life and all that.

It may be a difference between our systems (prosecutors here are not elected and don’t report directly to elected individuals, like prosecutors in a District Attorney’s office), but your experience doesn’t match mine. I’ve worked both sides of the street, and I’ve run into hard-nosed defence counsel and very sympathetic Crown prosecutors.

For instance, when I was just starting out, I did a little prosecutions work to get some court experience one summer. There was one case that has stayed with me, where both the guy and the gal in a domestic situation had been charged with drug possession, but they had competing claims as to whose it was. I sought counsel from one of the senior Crowns about how to handle it, and his first question was “In your opinion, what do you think is the fair result?” Not “can you get them both?” or “choose the one that’s going to get the greater sentence.” His advice was to teach me to try to reach a fair and just result.

I was reminded of that a couple of weeks ago. I was walking to work one morning and ran into a Crown prosecutor on his way to Queen’s Bench. I asked him what he was on, and he replied, “That murder trial that’s been in the papers. It’s terribly sad. Accused is charged with killing his half-brother.” Then he gave me a few details about the case, the family members who were testifying, the history of violence, and then ended with “It’s just … sad.” And off he went. No suggestion of “don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time”, or any of those other clichés used by people who aren’t in the system. His overriding feeling was of pity for the accused, the deceased, and the extended family.

32

You bet. What happens in the US is NOTHING like in Thailand. Police misconduct is not only excused, it is expected and even required.

33

While the US prison system not be as severe as some of the hideous examples in less enlightened countries, it excels in the sheer number of people imprisoned.

The US is the worlds biggest jailer and there are some clear biases involved that have more to do with politics than crime.

34

More people were arrested last year over pot than for murder, rape, aggravated assault and robbery — combined.

That’s fucked up.

35

Cecil indicates that may not be true:

“The U.S. certainly doesn’t have the highest incarceration rate in world history, and depending on whose figures you believe may not even have the highest rate now. However, to be honest, we’re more competitive than you might care to hear.”

36

I guess if you include the famously repressive regimes led by Hitler, Stalin and Mao in the last century, the mere 2million currently imprisoned by the US looks like an improvement.

Prisoners are not only incarcerated in the US, there are also an estimated 5 million Americans excluded from the voting because of the disenfranchisment of felons rules in place in many states.

Many other democracies allow prisoners to vote when they are in prison and certainly vote when they are released. They are not marked for life because they got into trouble with the law when young.

The laws and the judicial system in the US are directed by politicians who see the law as way to undermine and isolate their poltical opponents. From the war on drugs started by Nixon in the seventies to target the left and black Americans to Trump today with his pronoucements on immigration and bad hombres.

:frowning:

37

Non-smoking policies in prison are no more a “denial of freedom” than they are in the rest of society.

In addition to protecting other inmates from secondhand smoke, such prison policies are aimed at preventing smoking-related disease in inmates (which can also be costly to treat). Note that there are non-prison bans on outdoor smoking in situations where smoke buildup occurs.

By contrast, prisons had no such limitations in the bad old days when beatings/abuse occurred commonly. Smoking was seen as a safety valve in the days when a majority of adults smoked, and banning it might have caused riots.

I’m not sure how a blanket statement can be made about how we “dehumanize” criminals given widespread prisoners’ rights advocacy, successful lawsuits targeting overcrowding, and sympathetic media coverage of inmate rights and purported unjust convictions.

38

Where the hell are these rehabilitation figures coming from Sage Rat because they don’t even slightly resemble the figures that I encounter?

First, what do you mean by rehabilitation? That might sound obvious but it really is not.

Next, over what period of time is the measurement taken?

UK figures on reoffending and incarceration over 7 years are north of 70% and for those under 21 [what we descried as young offenders] that figure is in the 90% range.

Our figures can be massaged downward dramatically by looking at the 2 year or 12 month figures, and the reason that these figures are lower - especially the 12 month reoffending rates is that most offenders are on licence and frequently in hostels for the first 6 months to a year - which means any breaches such as failing to attend appointments will mean a recall back to prison without a further offence being committed - politicians tend to quote 12 month reoffending rates - it makes them look good.

These 12 monthly reoffending rates also count offenders who were unlikely to reoffend -such as fine defaulters, benefit fraudsters, serious traffic violations - these are generally individuals with prison terms less than 12 months and less, many never even having been awarded a prison term in the first place - its so obvious that this figure that you quote of 45% is so egregiously misleading as to be complete fantasy

I have just been part contributor to a paper which will be considered at certain levels on the way our future prisons should look as part of our ‘transforming rehabilitation’ program and this is something that took a deal of research

It is extremely difficult to square the cited reoffending rates with what is actually happening

If you look at organisations such as the Howard League and also the Prison Reform Trust, you’ll see the proof that the reoffending rates that are quoted are merely 12 months - which you will note is the prime time for offenders to be extremely careful about reoffending since they are readily returned to prison on breach of their licence conditions

Warning - .pdf with huge numbers of figures

http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/Bromley%20Briefings/Summer%202017%20factfile.pdf

In fact if you look especially at young offenders(who will eventually become adult offenders if intervention is not successful) you will find that locking them away is markedly less successful at reducing reoffending than community sentences

A few years ago, we in the UK used to calculate our reoffending rates based on a 2 year release from prison - and now we do it over a 12 month period - you do not have to be a genius to work out why.

How do I know that those 12 month reoffending rates are a load of hogwash? well all I can do is quote from documents that I have not been able to obtain online - such as ‘Criminal recidivism: explanation, prediction and prevention’ by George Zara/David P Farringdon p10 table 1.1 pub Routledge

where you will find the 9 year reconviction rate in the UK is around 74%

Unfortunately it is not easy to obtain the more realistic figures that are taken at 2 yearly intervals, at 3,5,7, and 9 years of first conviction - these are far more meaningful measures than the politician friendly 12 month reconviction rates - however even when you use your own logic then its obvious that the statistics frequently bandied about are specious at best.

Think about a decreasing exponential curve, with time on the x-axis and percentage on the y axis, in the first 12 months you have 46%, its not hard to work out that over the following 12 months the figure will be 46% of that, and so on - plot it out and see what you get, strangely enough, over a period of 9 years that will get you much closer to the figures I have quoted than the misleading 12 months reoffending rates.

Personally, I think that a correctional system that only looks at 12 months is utter bollocks, I would hope that most citizens would prefer to consider what reoffending rates look like over a longer period - since these truly expose the failure of our prison system.

39

Russian Prisons are basically the US on Steroids (or Crack depending on what your favorite cliche is)

Overcrowded, guards routinely beat/torture prisoners, guards aren’t afraid of using guns to break-up disturbances, rape is not only common it’s encouraged to maintain discipline. From what I read it’s basically Gulags 2.0

40

I’m no Siamese expert, but that’s been my impression of Thailand, which seems to forever vacillate between proto-democracy to military junta. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, in a lot of countries like Thailand, even in heated disputes where things are a little dicey, people are reluctant to get the authorities involved. People genuinely fear the police in some countries.