# Do other countries have federal/capital districts without voting rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 31, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380 "2010-05-31T13:21:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/1 "2010-05-31T13:21:22Z")
Inspired by the recent thread: [DC license plate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=564866). Do countries other than the US have a federal or capital district where the residents don’t have the right to vote for the national or state/provincial governments? Canada doesn’t have a separate federal district: the capital, Ottawa, is in the province of Ontario, and a good chunk of the federal bureaucracy is located across the river in Gatineau, Quebec, but the residents of those cities both have MPs in the federal House of Commons. They also have MPPs/MNAs in the Ontario/Quebec Legislatures. How does it work with the Australian Commonwealth Territory (not sure if that’s the right term)? Any other countries with a federal/national capital district? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/2 "2010-05-31T13:36:25Z")
Australia Capital Territory. It elects members to Parliament, both to the House of Representatives and Senate, and it has its own legislative assembly, but decisions made by the legislative assembly can be overturned by the Governor General. The Brazilian Federal District elects representatives to Brazil’s Chamber of Deputies (Lower House) and Senators (Upper House). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/3 "2010-05-31T13:41:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Australia Capital Territory. It elects members to Parliament, both to the House of Representatives and Senate, and it has its own legislative assembly, but decisions made by the legislative assembly can be overturned by the Governor General. Is that in the sense of the GovGen consent being necessary as part of the legislative process, or is it the old colonial power of disallowance? If the latter, does it happen very often? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/4 "2010-05-31T13:55:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Is that in the sense of the GovGen consent being necessary as part of the legislative process, or is it the old colonial power of disallowance? If the latter, does it happen very often? _[underscore added by Poly]_ For those of us not intimately familiar with Commonwealth law, **Piper** , you may want to define that underscored term. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/5 "2010-05-31T14:12:21Z")
Sure. I’ll use the Canada example, since it’s the one I’m familiar with. The Queen is a formal part of all the provincial legislatures and the federal Parliament, and her Royal Assent is necessary for a bill to become law. The GovGen serves that function at the federal level, and the Lt Govs at the provincial level. By convention, of course, the Queen’s representative always gives her consent to the bills proposed by the elected officials. However, during the colonial and early Dominion period, before the full establishment of the principles of responsible government, the GovGen was also the representative of the British government. If the Commons and Senate passed a bill that was contrary to the imperial policy, the Gov Gen could reserve the bill for Her Majesty’s consideration. That meant it didn’t come into effect unless Her Majesty, acting on the advice of her British government, gave Royal Assent. Alternatively, even if the Gov Gen gave Royal Assent, Her Majesty, again on advice of her British government, could disallow the bill, effectively setting aside the GovGen’s Assent. Similarly, the LtGovs in our system can reserve a provincial bill for the consideration of the GovGen (i.e. the federal government), and even if the LtGov does assent, the GovGen (acting on advice of the federal Cabinet) can disallow the bill. So, in the case of the ACT, I’m wondering if the GovGen is part of the ACT government, and therefore would always act on the advice of the ACT government and give Royal Assent as a matter of course, or does the power that **Captain Amazing** refers to mean that even if a bill is duly passed by the ACT legislature, the GovGen can disallow it, acting on the advice of the Commonwealth cabinet? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/6 "2010-05-31T14:19:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Is that in the sense of the GovGen consent being necessary as part of the legislative process, or is it the old colonial power of disallowance? If the latter, does it happen very often? It’s the power of disallowance. As the Self Government Act says: > [@](#): > > Section 35 > (1) In this section: "enactment includes a part of an enactment. > (2) Subject to this section, the Governor-General may by written instrument disallow an enactment within 6 months after it is made. > (3) A written instrument referred to in subsection (2) is a disallowable instrument for the purposes of section 46A of the _Acts Interpretation Act 1901_ > (4) The Governor-General may, within 6 months after an enactment is made, recommend to the Assembly any amendments of the enactment, or any other enactment, that the Governor-General considers to be desirable as a result of considering the enactment. It then goes on to say that the recommendation of an amendment resets the six month clock, and that once the notice of disallowment has been published, the enactment shall be treated as having been repealed. I think there may have been a law passed more recently that limited the GG’s power to disallow, and I don’t think it happens often. It most famously happened with the Civil Unions Act of 2006. (ACT passed a law allowing same and opposite sex civil unions that had the same rights as marriage, it caused a lot of controversy, the Howard government was against it, and it was disallowed). ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/7 "2010-05-31T14:20:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Is that in the sense of the GovGen consent being necessary as part of the legislative process, or is it the old colonial power of disallowance? If the latter, does it happen very often? Use of Governor General’s reserve powers has occurred very rarely in Australia and never on any local issue to the ACT government > **[Reserve power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_power)** > > In a parliamentary or semi-presidential system of government, a reserve power, also known as discretionary power, is a power that may be exercised by the head of state (or their representative) without the approval of another branch or part of the government. Unlike in a presidential system of government, the head of state (or their representative) is generally constrained by the cabinet or the legislature in a parliamentary system, and most reserve powers are usable only in certain limited circ... (scroll down to Australia) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/8 "2010-05-31T14:27:57Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Use of Governor General’s reserve powers has occurred very rarely in Australia and never on any local issue to the ACT government > [Reserve power - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_power) > (scroll down to Australia) Not true. It happened with the Civil Unions Act. Here’s the instrument of disallowance: [http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/framelodgmentattachments/9167EDA25CCC9F89CA25718C0017E0DB](http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/framelodgmentattachments/9167EDA25CCC9F89CA25718C0017E0DB) ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/9 "2010-05-31T14:56:41Z")
As **Captain Amazing** notes, the Australian Capital Territory elects members to the Senate. However, as with the Northern Territory, the ACT only has two senators. Outside the Territories, Australian States have 12 Senators each. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/10 "2010-05-31T15:01:18Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] [Quote=coremelt] Use of Governor General’s reserve powers has occurred very rarely in Australia and never on any local issue to the ACT government > **[Reserve power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_power)** > > In a parliamentary or semi-presidential system of government, a reserve power, also known as discretionary power, is a power that may be exercised by the head of state (or their representative) without the approval of another branch or part of the government. Unlike in a presidential system of government, the head of state (or their representative) is generally constrained by the cabinet or the legislature in a parliamentary system, and most reserve powers are usable only in certain limited circ... (scroll down to Australia) [/QUOTE] Not true. It happened with the Civil Unions Act. Here’s the instrument of disallowance: [/QUOTE] But would disallowance be a use of the “reserve power” of the GovGen? As wiki defines it, “[reserve powe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_power#Australia)r”: > [@](#): > > …a reserve power is a power that may be exercised by the head of state without the approval of another branch of the government. The disallowance power is used on the advice of the relevant Cabinet, no? So in the case of the Civil Unions Act, didn’t the Commonwealth Cabinet advise the GovGen to disallow the bill? If so, I’m not sure that counts as a use of the reserve power, unlike, say, dismissing Whitlam, where the Gov Gen acted on his own initiative. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/11 "2010-05-31T15:05:57Z")
Getting back to **Polycarp’s** original question, here are the relevant provisions from the [_Constitution Act, 1867_](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/2.html#codese:56): > [@](#): > > \*\*Royal Assent to Bills, etc. > 55. \*\*Where a Bill passed by the Houses of the Parliament is presented to the Governor General for the Queen’s Assent, he shall declare, according to his Discretion, but subject to the Provisions of this Act and to Her Majesty’s Instructions, either that he assents thereto in the Queen’s Name, or that he withholds the Queen’s Assent, or that he reserves the Bill for the Signification of the Queen’s Pleasure. > > \*\*Disallowance by Order in Council of Act assented to by Governor General > 56. \*\*Where the Governor General assents to a Bill in the Queen’s Name, he shall by the first convenient Opportunity send an authentic Copy of the Act to One of Her Majesty’s Principal Secretaries of State, and if the Queen in Council within Two Years after Receipt thereof by the Secretary of State thinks fit to disallow the Act, such Disallowance (with a Certificate of the Secretary of State of the Day on which the Act was received by him) being signified by the Governor General, by Speech or Message to each of the Houses of the Parliament or by Proclamation, shall annul the Act from and after the Day of such Signification. > > **Signification of Queen’s Pleasure on Bill reserved > 57.** A Bill reserved for the Signification of the Queen’s Pleasure shall not have any Force unless and until, within Two Years from the Day on which it was presented to the Governor General for the Queen’s Assent, the Governor General signifies, by Speech or Message to each of the Houses of the Parliament or by Proclamation, that it has received the Assent of the Queen in Council. > An Entry of every such Speech, Message, or Proclamation shall be made in the Journal of each House, and a Duplicate thereof duly attested shall be delivered to the proper Officer to be kept among the Records of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/12 "2010-05-31T15:08:43Z")
Pakistan has the Islambad Capital Territory, which 1. Elects two MNA’s to the National Assembly (the lower house). 2. And it will from later this year have its own judiciary with its own High Court\* expected to start functioning at the start of the 2010/2011 Judicial year (1 September), at present the Punjab Judiciary has juridiction/ 3. It does not have an elected government at local level, rather it is administrated by the Capital Development Authority, which is responsible to the Federal Government. \*From 2007-2009 there was a High Court in existance, but its method of creation (vide an Act of Parliament was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court). ---
**Author:** ![RhapsodyInBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RhapsodyInBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RhapsodyInBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/13 "2010-05-31T15:18:28Z")
posted in error ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/14 "2010-05-31T15:19:20Z")
So, if I understand correctly, what we have in Australia is that the capital district has full parliamentary representation in the House, partial in Senate, and there is some scope of intervention from the national level in internal government matters. IIRC part of the idea with creating the DC as a “neutral zone” was that the Federal Government not be sited within the jurisdiction of any of the states, so that whatever civil institutions supported it were ultimately under _Congress’_ top-down control (e.g. the DC Financial Control Board which took control of the city budget from the Mayors during the 90s). Part of the US constitutional problem in doing an Australian-style arrangement and giving DC a Congressional franchise \*while \*keeping it ultimately a ward of Congress is that the US Constitution provides the Senate is based on strictly equal representation, guaranteed specifically to the States, so the issue would be raised if Congress can grant 100% equal participation to an entity that is NOT a state. It would likely require a constitutional amendment and the assent of 38 states; it’s doubtful you’d get that many state governments to agree to that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/15 "2010-05-31T15:22:38Z")
Thanks for all the responses, folks. **RhapsodyInBlue** , a follow-up question: do the residents of Buenos Aires and Mexico City have voting rights in the national congresses? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/16 "2010-05-31T15:27:07Z")
Both the Argentine and Mexican Federal Districts have voting congressional representation. ETA: The issue with why not just not make DC a state outright, is that US states are nominally legally “sovereign” so you couldn’t have a “State of Columbia” subject to Congress still intervening at will in its everyday internal governeance. ---
**Author:** ![RhapsodyInBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RhapsodyInBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RhapsodyInBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/17 "2010-05-31T15:53:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Thanks for all the responses, folks. > > **RhapsodyInBlue** , a follow-up question: do the residents of Buenos Aires and Mexico City have voting rights in the national congresses? Yes, Buenos Aires has three senators in the Argentine Senate and is also represented in the lower houses. Mexico underwent some reforms in the 90’s in the way the DF is represented. They have the same number of representatives in the Senate as the other 31 states. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/18 "2010-05-31T16:25:44Z")
> [@Jervoise](#): > > As **Captain Amazing** notes, the Australian Capital Territory elects members to the Senate. However, as with the Northern Territory, the ACT only has two senators. Outside the Territories, Australian States have 12 Senators each. IIRC the ACT & NT’s senators only serve 3 year terms (same as MPs) while the states’ senators serve 6 year terms. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/19 "2010-05-31T19:32:35Z")
I still wonder about the feasibility of having a capital district which is essentially non-residential, except for elected officials and the like, thereby keeping the idea of not having the capital located in any state, while avoiding the whole representation issue. The elected officials living in it would be maintaining residency in their home states. It wouldn’t have to be a “complete” city - more like a Citadel. Support services would be contracted from the neighboring states, and the people employed on the premises would be commuting in from those states. So that you wouldn’t have one state getting the benefits and burdens of providing the support services, you would want to locate it in a corner somewhere close to three or four states. You could probably establish some (admittedly hated) procedure for the capital district to annex more land if the initial “smaller than a city” size isn’t big enough to house the government and its representatives anymore. I’m really thinking about something here which resembles the Vatican City in some ways. There’s no way the Vatican could function without Rome, which provides supporting infrastructure and lay workers. But it’s “sovereign”, and not part of Italy, even though Catholic clergy and the Swiss Guard are essentially the only Vatican citizens. There would be sizable cities growing up in the neighboring states, largely consisting of people whose livelihood depended on the federal government as the major local industry. That’s actually not terribly different than the current situation with parts of Virginia and Maryland in the DC metro area. You would just have everybody living in someplace like Arlington, rather than actually living in DC. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380/20 "2010-05-31T22:38:10Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > IIRC the ACT & NT’s senators only serve 3 year terms (same as MPs) while the states’ senators serve 6 year terms. The territory senators have terms that are tied to the election of the corresponding MHRs for their territory. Their terms are therefore not fixed, but determined by general election dates. They could run for up to three and a bit years (depending on general election dates). They could also be considerably shorter if an early election is called. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-countries-have-federal-capital-districts-without-voting-rights/541380.md?page=2)