# Do other languages have an equivalent for "Ms."? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307 "2009-11-20T18:10:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/21 "2009-11-22T02:38:37Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Hmm, but I don’t see any women being called Ms instead of Mrs in the news media, for example - it’s Mrs. Hillary Clinton, Mrs. Michelle Obama etc…Mr and Mrs. John Smith - not only did women loose their last name with marriage, they also lost their first name, too! When exactly did that stop in the US - the 70s or later? Mesdames Clinton and Obama are famous through their husbands, not on their own. Even Hillary’s political accomplishments (senator, presidential candidate, SecState, etc) only occured after years of being known as Bill Clinton’s wife. And yes women did sort of lose their first name on marriage. I don’t know how long it took to phase out, but these day’s it’s rare to see a woman called by her husband’s frist name unless both are being addressed very formally as a couple (like in a wedding invitation). Many women find this highly offensive even it they took their husband’s name. The old styles used to be something like this; Miss Jane Doe (unmarried woman) Mrs John Smith (married woman) Mrs John Smith (widow)\* Mrs Jane Smith (divorcée) Mrs Doe Smith (older style for divorcée) I’m not sure what divorced women to went back to using their maiden names were called; I suspect it’d either be Miss Jane Doe or Mrs Jane Doe. Older female servants in the UK were also called “Mrs” with their maiden name as a mark of respect. \*If she remarried she’d use something like “Mrs Jane Smith” or “Mrs Jane Doe Smith” in the announcements. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/22 "2009-11-22T04:11:47Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > In the Bible, or in Roman times, I don’t remember many people bothering with last names when addressing each other. Of course I am no Bible scholar. Because most people had no surname. Surnames in the Western world became common only in the late Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/23 "2009-11-22T04:22:14Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Hmm, but I don’t see any women being called Ms instead of Mrs in the news media, for example - it’s Mrs. Hillary Clinton, Mrs. Michelle Obama etc. I see less Miss used in the Media or on the net, but that might be more a function of age, and that social expectation in US culture that adult people stop living together and get married, so most women of a certain age will be Mrs. In my professional writing work, the rule of thumb is that if you _know_ they lady in question is married then you’d use Mrs., and if you’re unsure, then default to Ms. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/24 "2009-11-22T07:50:14Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Norwegian doesn’t, but then hardly anyone uses our words for Mr. and Mrs. either anymore. But if you do want to use that sort of title, it’s _fru_ for a woman and _herr_ for a man, regardless of marital status. I’ve only heard the old form of address for an unmarried woman, _frøken,_ used as a humorous term for an elementary school teacher. In general, though? What **naita** said. You call people you know by their given name and people you don’t know by their given name and surname, or surname alone. Kids call their teachers by their first name. About the only honorific titles, outside of family words, that gets used much is _doktor_ and even that gets dropped on the second reference. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/25 "2009-11-22T08:19:56Z")
And there’s this, admittedly hard to search for: > **[Married/single in languages other than English](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=520470)** > > I can’t believe this hasn’t come up here, but I did a couple of searches and couldn’t find it. In the last 30+ years, English speakers have adopted the term “Ms.” to hide the single/married status of a woman, especially in business. Good idea, I... ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/26 "2009-11-22T08:21:37Z")
I’d say lots of confusion. Reflecting lots of differing situations. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/27 "2009-11-22T08:50:00Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Mesdames Clinton and Obama are famous through their husbands, not on their own. Even Hillary’s political accomplishments (senator, presidential candidate, SecState, etc) only occured after years of being known as Bill Clinton’s wife. > [@Martini](#): > > In my professional writing work, the rule of thumb is that if you know they lady in question is married then you’d use Mrs., and if you’re unsure, then default to Ms. However, **alphaboi** claimed that a woman’s marital status is no longer relevant; obviosuly, it still matters in the US, otherwise it wouldn’t be stressed. > [@](#): > > And yes women did sort of lose their first name on marriage. I don’t know how long it took to phase out, but these day’s it’s rare to see a woman called by her husband’s frist name unless both are being addressed very formally as a couple (like in a wedding invitation). Which still sounds bad to me. When we invite a couple, the invitation is to Mr. John and Mrs Jane Smith, or Family Smith. The man doesn’t own the family or the wife any longer. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307/28 "2009-11-22T08:52:01Z")
Question: what do you do for example with foreigners? Is Angie Merkel called Mrs or Ms in the US press? She isn’t known for being First wife, and whether or not she is married is seldom brought up because it doesn’t matter much compared to the politics she does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-other-languages-have-an-equivalent-for-ms/518307.md?page=1)