# Do overt religious displays bias you for or against a business? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2007, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735 "2007-08-07T13:06:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/181 "2007-08-09T18:40:53Z")
[QUOTE=kifler] Once again, where does it say “SHOP HERE IF YOU’RE A CHRISTIAN”? In the end, if the business owner isn’t really a Christian and exploits the religion, then yes, its intrinsically bad, however there in such a minority of people like that. Theres a bakery in the “trendy” bit of town here in Ottawa with a rainbow flag in the window, they support the Gay Rights movement, however, they themselves are not gay. What about election signs? You’re simply advertising something you believe in to show your support for it and to allow others to identify you and what your believe in. I’m sorry if you think otherwise. [/QUOTE] If any of these ads are placed by non-Christians who think Christians are so exploited and downtrodden that they put the fish in as a sign of solidarity, then I withdraw my objection. Believing in religious freedom as I do, I might patronize that store - except that I’d suspect the owner has totally lost touch with reality. We’re talking about businesses here, remember. If a business put in an ad with a donkey or elephant (in the US) do you think it is wrong for members of the opposite party to not patronize that business? I don’t even mind Christmas decorations, inside the store. As for your first point, what the fsck else should we expect it to mean? Ads have to stress competitive advantage in some way. Maybe it is supposed to mean that the business is ethical, but we have been told that this doesn’t mean anyone else isn’t, so it’s not an advantage. It might mean that the business owner is so god-soaked he can’t do anything without shouting out his faith. Lenny Bruce had a line about over-sensitivity for another faith “The time is 5 pm and yes I’m Jewish!” Or, and this seems most likely, the ad is saying that the advertiser is a member of the club and other members should patronize him before those heathen. That’s fine, but we who are not club members will look for someplace else where we won’t be at the back of the line. For all I know, the secret Christian handshake will get you a 10% discount. Not for me, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/182 "2007-08-09T18:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Do you have to be dead to meet Dr. Frankenstein? [/QUOTE] Pat, Jerry, all those bleaters look the same to me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/183 "2007-08-09T18:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] The few times I’ve ever heard of a study being done, it’s shown that the more religious you are, the less trustworthy, compassionate, helpful, ethical, capable of love, etc you are. Which is probably why you generally don’t see such studies. [/QUOTE] I can’t offer a strong citation for your precise claim, but I just finished reading “The Cambridge Companion to Atheism” and can offer the following exerpt: > [@](#): > > **Morality and Crime** > The claim that atheists are somehow likely to be immoral or dishonest has long been disproven by systematic studies. In studies that looked at readiness to help or honesty, it was atheists that distinguished themselves, not the religious. Early in the twentieth century, a survey of 2,000 associates of the YMCA found that those identifying themselves as atheists or agnostics were more willing to help the poor than those who called themselves religious (Ross 1950). > When it comes to the more serioues matter of violence and crime, the religious affiliation of criminal offenders, the fact that the unaffiliated and the nonreligious had the lowest crime rates has been noted (Lombroso 1911; Bonger 1943; von Hentig 1948). According to von Hentig, being unaffiliated is the best predictor of law-abiding behavior. There is no reason to doubt the validity of this generalization today. - _Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi_, “Atheists: A Psychological Profile” in “The Cambridge Companion to Atheism” A few caveats are in order. First, this is an essay by someone sympathetic to the atheist view. This hardly means they are dishonestly portraying data, but their possible bias should be kept in mind. Secondly, the cited studies are clearly old. The most recent is from 1950. Thirdly, I can offer no direct data from the studies themselves, not being familiar with them. That said, I think there are real grounds for tentatively holding that non-religious people are _at least_ as moral (on average) as religious people. As to the OP, I agree with the general consensus in this thread. A religious icon or two in a store doesn’t bother me at all. But if a business heavily advertises their religiosity, it’s a turn-off. If it’s done to draw in those of the same religion or keep those of different religions (and the non-religious) away, then they don’t want my business. If it’s done as a proclamation of morality, then it’s counterproductive. The more used-car dealers yell about how honest they are, the less I believe them. Adding religious flavor to the yelling doesn’t change that. And if it’s done because the business owners are deeply religious and it’s a part of their life they simply can’t help but advertise, then I sincerely wonder about how professionally they can manage to run their business. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/184 "2007-08-09T18:52:17Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Frankly, I’m glad when a business makes a big deal of their political stances. That way, I can avoid giving any money to Dominos, for example. I’m all for that. [/QUOTE] Is Dominos political in their stores? I haven’t noticed. I avoid doing business with them because their pizza sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/185 "2007-08-09T18:57:29Z")
[QUOTE=kifler] BUT DEAR GOD! THEY USE A CROSS AS A SYMBOL! It doesn’t mean that you’re being treated any differently by them. [/QUOTE] Actually, Johnson and Johnson had the cross first, and the Red Cross licenses it. There is a lawsuit since the RC is licensing competing product with the cross, and J&J is pissed. I never imagined that snippet of info, which I got from the Times this morning, would come in handy so quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/186 "2007-08-09T19:00:25Z")
[QUOTE=kifler] Expression of self? We all know that the Gay Prides were created in order to get more people to try homosexuality… right? [/QUOTE] Tell me you’re joking. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/187 "2007-08-09T19:08:13Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Actually, Johnson and Johnson had the cross first, and the Red Cross licenses it. There is a lawsuit since the RC is licensing competing product with the cross, and J&J is pissed. I never imagined that snippet of info, which I got from the Times this morning, would come in handy so quickly. [/QUOTE] [hijack]The RC does license it, but I think they actually got there first. I think J&J just trademarked it first. I might be wrong about that. When did J&J start?[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/188 "2007-08-09T19:13:48Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Is Dominos political in their stores? I haven’t noticed. I avoid doing business with them because their pizza sucks. [/QUOTE] Well, they have their own PAC: [http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.asp?strID=C00366088](http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.asp?strID=C00366088) I don’t think they talk about it in the stores (I’ve never been in one) but they are open about it, so I don’t give them money. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/189 "2007-08-09T19:15:00Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Ah, I see now. Yeah, I’m pretty much with you on that one. My brain simmers a little at pro-life propaganda, but as we’ve already established, that’s more a political message than a religious one. (I do actually know atheist pro-lifers; while there’s a large overlap between religious and pro-life, the terms are not close to synonymous.) [/QUOTE] Actually, I’d think that any business owner who put a religious or political message on their truck is an idiot, even if it is a message I agree with. If we start to identify our businesses with specific ethnic, religious, or political groups, we’re going to wind up like Northern Ireland, Lebanon, or Iraq. Assuming there is no good reason to do so, of course. In my town many stores have Arabic or Chinese lettering on their windows, showing that the people inside speak that language and are good places for the many people in my town who speak those as a first (and sometimes only) language to shop. I’m not offended at all, though I’ll go someplace else if the clerks don’t speak English. Not out of politics, just because it is tough to do business when you call a store, ask what time it closes, and get total incomprehension. In these cases there is a good business reason for using these languages. None of the Arabic stores see fit to use a crescent, by the way, and I’ve never seen any indication they consider themselves superior. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/190 "2007-08-09T19:15:37Z")
[QUOTE=kifler] To those who said they refuse to give their business, they can’t honestly tell me they don’t know someone who has a cross, fish, or any religious symbol somewhere on them or their property and refuse to associate with that person. As a Christian, a Catholic to be precise, I have a rosary hanging from my rearview mirror for personal reasons. I don’t have it there to tell people that I hate them or I believe this or that and laugh at people who think I do. I hope that in the event of a disaster you all turn away the aid of religious organizations too, after all, everyone knows the Red Cross is only there to convert you and eat your brains :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I haven’t been to Mass since they used Latin. But, in those days, it was considered almost sacreligious to wear the Rosary as jewelry. Even in my lapsed state, I’d consider it poor taste to hang a Rosary from a rearview mirror. However, you may express yourself as you wish. And many businesses I frequent have religious “decorations”–Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist & RC. However, I find using the Fish (or any other religious/political symbol) in advertising rather tacky. But I might make an exception for the [Rainbow Fish](http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/880371878.html)! **Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese Uses the Christian Fish Symbol for Homosexual Solidarity** … > [@](#): > > BUDAPEST, Hungary, Jan. 8 /Christian Newswire/ – The Christian fish symbol is an ancient and sacred symbol for the persecuted Christians in the 1st century, as well as contemporary believers in Christ. But that symbol which showed that Christians identified with each other in their obedience to follow Christ is taking on a whole new meaning. The Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles, as one of their ministries, ‘Ministry with Lesbians and Gay Catholics’ decided to make the sacred fish symbol into a rainbow fish symbol pin. > > As most people know, the homosexual community has long used the rainbow as a symbol of their solidarity with the movement to legitimize homosexuality in their communities. From the Diocese’ own website, it states “See in the fish pin a sign of recognition of our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers. The pin signals solidarity with all people of faith who promote justice and inclusivity for every person in their faith communities.” … > > Phil Magnan, the Director of Biblical Family Advocates, a Christian ministry to promote biblical morality had this to say in response, “I was somewhat stunned that such a large Catholic Diocese which represents millions of Catholics would ignore the mandates of their own faith… > > “To actually put the rainbow colors on such a sacred symbol for the Christian is an affront to the faith of not only the early church believers, but those of us who know that homosexuality and its colors have no place representing historical Christianity that upholds holiness and morality, very highly.” (You do realize that some of the Christian Fish folks regard you as a Hellbound Papist, don’t you?) ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/191 "2007-08-09T19:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Not out of politics, just because it is tough to do business when you call a store, ask what time it closes, and get total incomprehension. [/QUOTE] It’s not because they don’t understand English. It’s because most businesses run by Arab or Chinese people are open 24-7. 😃 😉 _d&r_ ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/192 "2007-08-09T19:27:55Z")
Years ago when I was young and went to church. I got the worse cheating of my life from a couple of church members. One was a lawyer, the other a real estate broker. It almost cost me my house. I don’t go to church anymore, but that is not the reason. I deal with a Christian auto repair company, have for more than 20 years and have always been treated fair. He put in a starter a couple of months ago and it quit. He replaced it free of charge, no questions. I would trust him with any car I owned. Don’t get “hung up” on names, they are meaningless. Look for reliable people when you want to deal on something. Being an atheist or a religious person doesn’t say anything about how you treat others. Try to find a company with a reputation for fair dealing and stick with them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/193 "2007-08-09T19:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] It’s not because they don’t understand English. It’s because most businesses run by Arab or Chinese people are open 24-7. 😃 😉 [/QUOTE] Not florists. ☹ They all seem to close at 5, kind of hard when you get off work at 6. But that’s a feeble Pit thread for another day. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/194 "2007-08-09T19:37:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] I haven’t been to Mass since they used Latin. But, in those days, it was considered almost sacreligious to wear the Rosary as jewelry. Even in my lapsed state, I’d consider it poor taste to hang a Rosary from a rearview mirror. [/QUOTE] \ I don’t care if it rains or freezes Long as I got my plastic Jesus Sitting on the dashboard of my car. \ (Sorry, just had to.) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/195 "2007-08-09T19:49:06Z")
[QUOTE=kifler] So under your logic, I shouldn’t trust Black people as I’ve had 2 of them steal my bikes (So in my experience, 100% of personal theft has occured by Blacks) and every American is a warmonger because so many of your houses display the Stars and Stripes. [/QUOTE] You are deliberately misreading my statements and I’m done talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/196 "2007-08-09T20:11:23Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Actually, I’d think that any business owner who put a religious or political message on their truck is an idiot, even if it is a message I agree with. [/QUOTE] Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/197 "2007-08-09T20:14:21Z")
Christians should be the _most_ offended when businesses engage in transparent, Christian targeted, religious pandering in their advertising. Aren’t those businesses basically saying they think Christians are suckers who will easily be reeled in by the sight of a cross or Bible verse? I once saw a Dateline-type show (don’t remember exactly what it was – if it wasn’t Dateline it was something similar), where they were busting used car dealerships with hidden mics and cameras, catching what they dealers were saying to each other when they thought there weren’t any customers watching. They caught one dealer hustling a particular couple (who he had somehow deduced were Christians) by going on and how about how he was a Christian and why that made it so important to be honest and tell the truth and work to give people the squarest deals, yadda, yadda. Then, after the couple left, he immediately started snickering to the other dealers about how he was playing them by telling them he was a Christian and essentially mocking them as gullible, easy marks. It was fun to watch him squirm when the Dateline crew went back and played the video back to him. That’s pretty much how I feel about a lot of overtly religious advertising – that it’s a come on, a hustle. I would expect a lot of people in the target faith to see right through it and be annoyed by it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/198 "2007-08-09T20:26:38Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] Besides being a religious belief system, Christianity is also a code of ethics. And yes, I do believe that a person who _sincerely_ (repeat — _sincerely_) subscribes to a code of ethics, by whatever name — Christianity, Judaism, Islam, the Better Business Bureau charter — is more likely to be ethical than a person who does not subscribe to a code of ethics. [/QUOTE] Even assuming that was true ( and the last thing I’d call Christianity is ethical ), so what ? Do you think that an unethical person wouldn’t do something unethical, like, oh, put a religious symbol on his advertisments to attract gullible religious people, despite not caring about that religion ? If the advertisment said “WE ARE HONEST ! TRUST US !” would that make you think they are more trustworthy ? Really, you make me think of the old anti-Communists who wanted everyone to pledge allegience to God & America, apparently under the theory that Communist agents wouldn’t **lie** and swear anyway. [QUOTE=Phase42] Except posters like **Der Trihs** do _not_ appear to be making that distinction. They’re making generalized statements of “fact” that are essentially no different from me saying that I wouldn’t patronize a Muslim-owned business because “those people are terrorists, and Mohammed was a warmonger and pedophile” - a statement for which I would be (rightly) castigated on these boards. [/QUOTE] Nonsense. Did I say I wouldn’t patronize Christian owned business ? No. I said that I wouldn’t patronize a business that made a point of flaunting how Christian it was. I don’t trust someone whose flaunting how Christian they are for the same reason I don’t rtrust someone who flaunts, say, how patriotic they are. Almost certainly, they are either trying to manipulate people, or they are fanatics. [QUOTE=BlackKnight] That said, I think there are real grounds for tentatively holding that non-religious people are _at least_ as moral (on average) as religious people. [/QUOTE] Supporting this, I just found [this](http://pressesc.com/news/80931072007/atheist-doctors-more-likely-care-poor-religious-ones) story. > [@](#): > > Atheist doctors are likely to practice medicine among the underprivileged than religious physicians, even though most religions call on the faithful to serve the poor, according to the results of large cross-sectional survey of US medical practitioners published in Annals of Family Medicine. > > Researchers from the University of Chicago and Yale New Haven Hospital report that 31 percent of physicians who were more religious—as measured by “intrinsic religiosity” as well as frequency of attendance at religious services—practiced among the underserved, compared to 35 percent of physicians who described their religion as atheist, agnostic or none. A small difference, yes. But the it’s not in the favor of the religious, and it’s certainly not what I’d expect if most people’s atheism = evil attitude was true. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/199 "2007-08-10T11:45:03Z")
If a store or business displayed one of their symbols I would trade with them if the price was right, or the article was made better, however I would consider that Jesus didn’t like the Pharisees because they wore their religious symbols to show how holier than thou they were. So I wouldn’t be impressed or think they were really more honest etc. than other businesses that made no such display. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735/200 "2007-08-10T14:28:03Z")
I would go out of my way to not do business with someone advertising themselves as a ‘Christian’ business. It’s totally without class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-overt-religious-displays-bias-you-for-or-against-a-business/414735.md?page=11)