# Do ozzies kick ass or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394 "2003-01-23T06:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/1 "2003-01-23T06:23:37Z")
OK, I don’t really have a “debate” so much as a IMHO, but it’s about the war, so it’ll devolve into a debate soon, so I put it here. Mods, do as you will. I love the Australians for their grit and moxie most all of the time. But I love them most of all, because, right now, they understand, as Tony Blair said awhile ago, that the price of having influence on US foreign policy is that “you don’t leave the US to face the tricky issues alone.” So in contrast to some other nation-states, they have signed on to the idea that as bad an idea as war in Iraq is, it’s the least bad option on the table. Today’s Daily Telegraph: “A MASSIVE deployment of Australian ground forces to the Middle East for a possible war with Iraq begins today in Sydney … The Kanimbla will join HMAS Anzac and Darwin in the Persian Gulf where they are enforcing sanctions against Iraq.” Oh, but that isn’t the part I love. This is: “Code named operation Bastille, it is the biggest contingent of Australian troops to be sent to the Gulf and is larger than expected…” Hmmm… think maybe that code name sends a message? 😛 [http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story\_page/0,5936,5876031%5E701,00.html](http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5876031%255E701,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/2 "2003-01-23T06:53:28Z")
Canberra Ozzies kick ass because their whole town burned down around them and they’re _still there_. Dude, that’s some moxie. 😃 But, er, “massive” deployment? I don’t think so. > **[Australian troops on rocky war path](https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/australian-troops-on-rocky-war-path-20030123-gdg5hq.html)** > [@](#): > > Australian troops on rocky war path > By Tom Allard Defence Writer > January 23 2003 > > Australian troops today begin heading for the Persian Gulf as divisions at home and in the United Nations widen over the US push to launch a military strike on Iraq if Saddam Hussein does not quickly prove he has disarmed. > > The unprecedented split in public opinion comes as protesters vowed to disrupt this morning’s farewell ceremony for the HMAS Kanimbla, hosted by the Prime Minister, John Howard, at Sydney’s Garden Island naval dockyard. > > The transport ship, likely to double as the site of Australia’s military command, is the first of a series of deployments of about 2000 personnel that will build to a military contribution substantially larger than that sent to Afghanistan. > > A squadron of SAS troops, F/A-18 aircraft, Chinook helicopters, a Hercules plane, several dozen commandos, a navy diving team and Incident Response Regiment personnel with expertise in chemical and biological warfare are also slated to head to the Gulf. Sorry, but 2,000 troops, a diving team, a plane, and “several dozen commandos” doesn’t constitute “massive” in my book. The Aussies sent about 1,500 troops altogether to Afghanistan in fall 2001. [http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/11/20/ret.australia.troops/](http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/11/20/ret.australia.troops/) And, er… > [@](#): > > \*\*So in contrast to some other nation-states, they have signed on to the idea that as bad an idea as war in Iraq is, it’s the least bad option on the table. \*\*…not _everybody_ Down Under thinks jumping on Uncle Sam’s War Wagon is such a hot idea. > **[Latest news from around the world | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world)** > > Latest World news news, comment and analysis from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice > [@](#): > > A poll released Tuesday found 61 percent of Australians were opposed to Australian involvement in any U.S.-led military action. The figure was up 8 percent from a similar poll in October. > > The survey of 1,200 Australians last weekend found only 30 percent of respondents support Australia following the United States into a war with Iraq. No margin of error was given. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/3 "2003-01-23T07:01:38Z")
Hmmmm, Personally I don’t have a problem with sending troops over in readiness. I would be uncomfortable though, if the troops were subsequently commited to war without the backing of the UN. Unfortunately as a non-citizen of Australia I have absolutely no say in the matter what-so-ever, though by the looks of that poll, the wishes of the Australian public majority aren’t being follwed. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/58f4c7/32.png) [@Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Barber_s_Underwear)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/4 "2003-01-23T07:11:53Z")
I don’t really think that there is too much support in Australia to commit forces to the Gulf, and any more than a token committment would be impossible, due to both public sentiment and our committments elsewhere. A contingent of SAS troops is the most useful support that we can provide, as they are easily the equal of any other elite forces around the world, and they would be far more useful than any larger committment of soldiers or aircraft than we could provide. The _Australian_ newspaper reported this morning that 4RAR - Australia’s only commando battalion, was on standbye, but I would be very surprised if we went the stage of committing an entire battalion. By the way, it is ‘Aussies’, not ‘Ozzies’ - I believe that Ozzy refers to an old pommy rocker or an ostrich not seen in a few years. - Bubba. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/5 "2003-01-23T07:23:51Z")
No, I wouldn’t call it “massive” either, except perhaps proportionately. But the word and the emphasis were not mine. and I was fully aware that they are as split there as we are here. But like the leadership in the US, and UK, the government knows what needs to be done. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/6 "2003-01-23T07:25:51Z")
I assumed Ozzie because some of my Australian friends refer to home as “Oz;” I’ve seen both. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/7 "2003-01-23T07:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > But like the leadership in the US, and UK, the government knows what needs to be done. Do I take it that in your view “what needs to be done” is self evident? Your careful use of language that suggests that debate is unnecessary is obnoxious “There is only One True Way” (which is, as it happens, your way). There are many here who think that if the US wants to pursue its rather strange obsession with Iraq, they should do so on their own. ---
**Author:** ![auliya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@auliya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auliya)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/8 "2003-01-23T07:52:18Z")
> [@](#): > > But I love them most of all, because, right now, they understand, as Tony Blair said awhile ago, that the price of having influence on US foreign policy is that “you don’t leave the US to face the tricky issues alone.” Sounds to me like a bit of a threat there **furt** , do you see this as a “you back us or face the consequences” type of situation? A poll I saw a week ago (sorry I can’t find a link) found 82% of Australian respondents did not support a war with Iraq, and expressly not without full UN agreement, and as **DDG** points out another poll had this figure at 61% Basically there is far from majority support for any war with Iraq and even less for a US led rather than UN sanctioned one, influence on US foreign policy being dangled as the carrot or not. (woohoo!!! my 100th post :p) ---
**Author:** ![stringy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@stringy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stringy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/9 "2003-01-23T10:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by auliya \* > \*\*Basically there is far from majority support for any war with Iraq and even less for a US led rather than UN sanctioned one, influence on US foreign policy being dangled as the carrot or not. > \*\* This is true, and important. Personally, if there was UN backing for this war I’d be less reluctant about it, not that little Johnny Howard cares what I think. But given the present circumstances, no-one I know supports sending troops over. We have commitments in East Timor (close to home) already, and other places. However, Aussies do indeed kick ass. Or arse, if you prefer. But we’re generally quite peace-loving. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/10 "2003-01-23T11:34:50Z")
I know that’s the way it sounds, mate, but it’s written “Aussies.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/11 "2003-01-23T11:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > **. . . But I love them most of all, because, right now, they understand, as Tony Blair said awhile ago, that the price of having influence on US foreign policy is that “you don’t leave the US to face the tricky issues alone.” . . .** Well, in general terms, most people understand that that countries which tog out _with_ the US on foreign policy issues are more likely to be listened to by the US government on foreign policy issues than those which do not, if only because the US will prefer to keep them on the team. (Curiously, this holds good for nations other than the US as well.) On the other hand, if the particular influence you want to have on US foreign policy is to persuade them not to go to war with Iraq, supporting them in going to war with Iraq is, on the whole, unlikely to give you the influence you want, is it? Moreover I find the idea that another nation should drop a few bombs on Iraq in order to increase its bargaining power in Washington DC morally questionable, to put it no higher. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/12 "2003-01-23T12:13:27Z")
Public – and parliamentary – support in the UK isn’t exactly rock-solid either. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/13 "2003-01-23T12:46:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _furt_ > that the price of having influence on US foreign policy That’s one way to read it. Another is that we’re a lickspittle. ---
**Author:** ![woolly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ebca7d/32.png) [@woolly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woolly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/14 "2003-01-23T12:46:16Z")
> [@](#): > > the price of having influence on US foreign policy is that “you don’t leave the US to face the tricky issues alone.” woolly is on of the “Well OK with a UN mandate, but not else” side of the debate. However, it should be noted that every time (and I mean every time) the US has banged the war drum, Australia has answered. This isn’t some recent switch of allegiance or act of vested interests. However, as to having influence on US foreign policy, I’m not sure that extends to much more than the odd Rose Garden photo op and the offer of a band-aid and a “sorry” after we’ve been trodden on. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/15 "2003-01-23T13:11:56Z")
I think your mistaking “The Australian Public” with “John Howard”. Basically, A large proportion of the Australian public have been heavily critisizing JH on what can only be described as “copious ass suckage” towards the USA. Public sentiment seems to be that more should be done in trying to stabilise the local region (ie. Indonesia) and work on the refugee problem rather than to commit to a faraway war that has little real consequences on our particular region. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/16 "2003-01-23T14:14:27Z")
So “grit and moxie” = sucking up to the US at all costs. Whatever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/17 "2003-01-23T16:11:45Z")
You are wrong, **furt**. Australians are stupid. We don’t kick arse. We’re the biggest fucking wastes of space on this whole continent. A large majority of us voted into power a racist, reactionary government who doesn’t give a fuck about anyone unless they’re earning big money. A government who cast political honesty and accountability out the window, a government that blindly follows the most despicable foreign policy in the western world, a government that is systematically destroying the freedoms of its citizens to create a fearful society that will continue to embrace its backwards ideals. Save your praise until we really deserve it. Australia doesn’t kick ass. The best thing we’ve done for ages is oppose this Iraq deal, but it doesn’t make up for any of the disgusting policy that the Australian population has supported over the past few years. Fuck Australia. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/18 "2003-01-23T16:14:25Z")
afterthought: of course, my post should only be read as a stress-relieving rant. If you want to read a somewhat more rational view than mine, just check out the four or five posts above, which all speak on the matter quite sensibly. ---
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/19 "2003-01-23T18:54:27Z")
You should still feel good about yourself, gex. Consider how much worse the above rant would have to be coming out of my mouth: Americans are stupid. Almost half of us voted into power a racist, reactionary government which doesn’t give a fuck about anyone unless they’re earning big money. A government who cast political honesty and accountability out the window, a government that aggressively generates the most despicable foreign policy, a government that is systematically destroying the freedoms of its citizens to create a fearful society that will continue to embrace its backwards ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/58f4c7/32.png) [@Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Barber_s_Underwear)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394/20 "2003-01-24T00:36:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\*You are wrong, **furt**. Australians are stupid. We don’t kick arse. We’re the biggest fucking wastes of space on this whole continent. A large majority of us voted into power a racist, reactionary government who doesn’t give a fuck about anyone unless they’re earning big money. A government who cast political honesty and accountability out the window, a government that blindly follows the most despicable foreign policy in the western world, a government that is systematically destroying the freedoms of its citizens to create a fearful society that will continue to embrace its backwards ideals. > \*\* The real problem is that there is no decent alternative to the coalition. I suspect that a Labor government would be almost as supportive of the US as the coalition (I know that Crean is stating his concerns now, but that is the opposition’s job), and I can’t imagine how we’d be if the Democrats ever had some influence again. - Bubba. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-ozzies-kick-ass-or-what/150394.md?page=2)