# Do people get better in prison **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785 "2011-07-21T00:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/21 "2011-07-22T14:00:17Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That’s partly due to human variation; since people end up in prison for different reasons, a one-size-fits-all approach won’t work any better than it would for managing teams or for teaching. And that’s something which can be really hard to get through the heads of TPTB; they can’t even understand that the same management style won’t work equally well with your average accountant and your average engineer, they’re even less likely to understand that treating the same a shoplifting teenager, a dude who’s on his 40th count of “intent to distribute”, and someone who went violent in the middle of a heavy attack of undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenia (I think that’s the official name) will not give particularly good results - and if it works for one, it won’t work for all three. Actually, prisons are pretty good at differentiating between those types of things, the intake evaluation and assessment routine works hard at teasing out those and many other factors, and coming up with appropriate diagnoses and rehab tracks based on these needs. One aspect of the problem is one of implementation; manpower and other resources are lacking to get much more than cursory programming together. Slots for programs are limited. I could go on and on, but I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/22 "2011-07-22T14:11:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That’s partly due to human variation; since people end up in prison for different reasons, a one-size-fits-all approach won’t work any better than it would for managing teams or for teaching. And that’s something which can be really hard to get through the heads of TPTB; they can’t even understand that the same management style won’t work equally well with your average accountant and your average engineer, they’re even less likely to understand that treating the same a shoplifting teenager, a dude who’s on his 40th count of “intent to distribute”, and someone who went violent in the middle of a heavy attack of undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenia (I think that’s the official name) will not give particularly good results - and if it works for one, it won’t work for all three. I think you underestimate us (in case you were unaware, I used to be A Power That Was in a prison). Screening and classifying prisoners was a big part of the job and we put a lot of effort into running different types of programs and assigned people into the appropriate areas. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/23 "2011-07-22T14:17:21Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > well there is this:[Black men survive longer in prison than out: study](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/14/us-prison-blacks-idUSTRE76D71920110714) I’m speculating but I think this is more a reflection on conditions out in the real world rather than conditions inside prisons. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/24 "2011-07-22T15:02:52Z")
gonzomax sort of hit on it, but I believe that the prisons are fooling themselves. Give the prisoners a high school, college, or even a graduate education. Nobody will hire an ex-con once he gets out. What is he supposed to do to make a living? There was a case here not too long ago where a man did prison time in his youth for armed robbery (during which robbery a police officer was killed). He is in his 50s now, went to college and graduated from law school. The Bar denied him admittance because of his crime committed 30 years prior. What is that guy supposed to do? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/25 "2011-07-22T15:43:40Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > gonzomax sort of hit on it, but I believe that the prisons are fooling themselves. Give the prisoners a high school, college, or even a graduate education. Nobody will hire an ex-con once he gets out. What is he supposed to do to make a living? > > There was a case here not too long ago where a man did prison time in his youth for armed robbery (during which robbery a police officer was killed). He is in his 50s now, went to college and graduated from law school. The Bar denied him admittance because of his crime committed 30 years prior. What is that guy supposed to do? Well, he’s not supposed to commit armed robbery. Most people manage that much. Do ex-cons have a harder time getting hired? Yes, but what do you feel is the solution? Should we perhaps give businesses financial incentives to give preferential hiring treatment to ex-cons? What does that say to the people who are looking for jobs and didn’t ever commit a felony? That they screwed up by staying out of prison? Let’s say I own a business and I have a choice between two job applicants. They have equal experience but one committed armed robbery and one did not. I’ll be open about this and admit that I would hire the guy who didn’t commit a crime - that seems like a pretty reasonable basis to pick one applicant over the other. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/26 "2011-07-22T16:17:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, he’s not supposed to commit armed robbery. Most people manage that much. > > Do ex-cons have a harder time getting hired? Yes, but what do you feel is the solution? Should we perhaps give businesses financial incentives to give preferential hiring treatment to ex-cons? What does that say to the people who are looking for jobs and didn’t ever commit a felony? That they screwed up by staying out of prison? > > Let’s say I own a business and I have a choice between two job applicants. They have equal experience but one committed armed robbery and one did not. I’ll be open about this and admit that I would hire the guy who didn’t commit a crime - that seems like a pretty reasonable basis to pick one applicant over the other. I agree with everything you just said. So what is the guy who gets out of prison supposed to do to make a living? Most will get out someday. What is the point of GEDs and college degrees in prison when nobody will give them a job when they get out? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/27 "2011-07-22T16:34:53Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I agree with everything you just said. > > So what is the guy who gets out of prison supposed to do to make a living? Most will get out someday. What is the point of GEDs and college degrees in prison when nobody will give them a job when they get out? What’s he supposed to do? Deal with it is the best suggestion I can offer. I’m not denying that being an ex-con makes your life more difficult. But there’s no real solution. It’s like how dropping out of high school makes getting a good job more difficult - a fact that’s true but not subject to any obvious remedy. The reality is blunt - you shouldn’t have committed a crime or dropped out of school. If you did, now you’re fucked. Sometimes when you make a bad choice when you’re young, you’re stuck with it for the rest of your life. (Something to think about when you’re considering getting a facial tattoo.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/28 "2011-07-22T16:53:28Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > you can start out by noticing that lots of poor white people imprisoned for low key drug-related offenses could have been perfectly functional and upstanding if they had jobs. Instead, the wrecked economy pushes them into illegal (though not necessarily profoundly harmful) activities and then the penitentiary system damages them even further. > > The practice of severe punishment for minor offenses may have done wonders for keeping black underclass thugs off the streets, but the practice apparently rubs off onto poor whites as well. Not that the folks running the government and the media propaganda that tells voters what to think have much of a concern for them. And here I though you didn’t realize you were linking to a white supremacist publication. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/29 "2011-07-22T17:09:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I keep hoping I’m misunderstanding you. Are you saying prison is good for poor black people but poor white people deserve better? I don’t think that modern American prisons are “good” for anybody. Quite the opposite, they are a scary example of the sheer depth of depravity and injustice of modern liberalism and governance practices it induces. That, however, is irrelevant to the point I made in post 17 that a sane white society would have prevented lots of now incarcerated whites from ever becoming criminals as well as effectively rehabilitated and reintegrated those who have served time for minor offenses. The thugs, meanwhile, will always remain thugs regardless of empty promises of arrogant government officials to cure all ills. Government has been promising to cure the underclass beginning from late 60s onwards, and see how well that went, even in the best of times. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/30 "2011-07-22T17:12:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And here I though you didn’t realize you were linking to a white supremacist publication. :smack: which of the factual claims of that article are you disputing? Which of them “do not pass the smell test” based on what is known from other sources including from postings of people here on SD who experienced incarceration? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/31 "2011-07-22T17:14:57Z")
I don’t know, because I’m sure as hell not going to a white supremacist website on my work computer. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/32 "2011-07-22T17:16:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We have a throw away society. When a person goes to jail, even if they are innocent, they have no value anymore. They are forever ex-cons. They must be met with distrust and dislike . They should not get jobs . Then of course they have to commit crimes to survive. So back in jail with them. You should totally start a business that does nothing but hire ex-cons then. God Speed ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/33 "2011-07-22T17:31:11Z")
Never worked at a labor pool, I take it? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/34 "2011-07-22T18:12:08Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > which of the factual claims of that article are you disputing? Which of them “do not pass the smell test” based on what is known from other sources including from postings of people here on SD who experienced incarceration? It doesn’t pass my smell-test and I have decades of experience in prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/35 "2011-07-22T18:45:26Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > perhaps this article [White Man in a Texas Prison - American Renaissance](http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/03/white_man_in_a_1.php) can shed some light for you on who gets better and who gets worse in an American jail nowadays. I’ve only a decade of experience with just about every type of inmate in maximum security prisons, along with about every type of inmate complaint, and more than a few inmate altercations. And I consider the link hyperbolic, inflammatory and distorted, all in the effort to push a definite agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/36 "2011-07-22T18:49:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, he’s not supposed to commit armed robbery. Most people manage that much. > > Do ex-cons have a harder time getting hired? Yes, but what do you feel is the solution? Should we perhaps give businesses financial incentives to give preferential hiring treatment to ex-cons? What does that say to the people who are looking for jobs and didn’t ever commit a felony? That they screwed up by staying out of prison? > > Let’s say I own a business and I have a choice between two job applicants. They have equal experience but one committed armed robbery and one did not. I’ll be open about this and admit that I would hire the guy who didn’t commit a crime - that seems like a pretty reasonable basis to pick one applicant over the other. Perhaps a records amnesty after a certain length of time being “crime free”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/37 "2011-07-22T19:09:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It doesn’t pass my smell-test and I have decades of experience in prisons. Yeah, but you’re black, so your opinion doesn’t count in white society. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/38 "2011-07-22T21:51:41Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I’ve only a decade of experience with just about every type of inmate in maximum security prisons, along with about every type of inmate complaint, and more than a few inmate altercations. And I consider the link hyperbolic, inflammatory and distorted, all in the effort to push a definite agenda. everybody pushes a definite agenda, either by what they say or, more often, by what they omit to say (to avoid being inflammatory and racist, perhaps). So which claims advanced by that particular inflammatory racist are hyperbolic and distorted in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/39 "2011-07-22T22:53:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, but you’re black, so your opinion doesn’t count in white society. 😃 Black? If I was any whiter I’d be Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/40 "2011-07-22T22:57:30Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > everybody pushes a definite agenda, either by what they say or, more often, by what they omit to say (to avoid being inflammatory and racist, perhaps). So which claims advanced by that particular inflammatory racist are hyperbolic and distorted in your opinion? Sorry, I’m not going back into that cesspit of a site for free. And my standard hourly expert witness rates are $425/hour. Once I’ve identified a specimen as a turd, I don’t go back to assess just exactly what its composition is, and how much of it might contain some kernels of corn, which do have some theoretical value. Not for less than big bucks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785.md?page=3)