# Do people get better in prison **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785 "2011-07-21T00:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/41 "2011-07-23T05:24:49Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > everybody pushes a definite agenda, either by what they say or, more often, by what they omit to say (to avoid being inflammatory and racist, perhaps). So which claims advanced by that particular inflammatory racist are hyperbolic and distorted in your opinion? I’ll take a shot at it. Here’s some of the things I didn’t find realistic based on my experience in prisons: 1. The moral superiority of white prisoners. In my experience, some of the worst prisoners were white - they whined the most anyway. 2. Black prisoners are always violent and looking for fights. 3. Black prisoners sit around loudly yelling “Nigger” at each other. 4. Employees are afraid of black prisoners so they let them get away with things. 5. Black prisoners gang rape white prisoners. 6. Black prisoners walk around openly masturbating, including masturbating on female employees. Here’s what I thought was realistic: 1. White supremacists are scared of black people. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/42 "2011-07-23T14:51:04Z")
Without resorting to revisiting that site, I can recall not finding it realistic that the black inmates got away with the disrespect towards the officers. In our system (23,000 inmates) that sort of behavior by anyone results in conduct reports, restrictions, and time in the segregation unit. The same for anyone wandering around openly masturbating. That’ll get you _negative_ attention in our system. And ditto **Nemo** ’s comment on the supposed moral superiority of the whites. I’m sure not seeing that at all. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/43 "2011-07-23T18:20:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Black? If I was any whiter I’d be Canadian. No, no, no. Canadians are ethnically diverse. The correct description is, “If I was any whiter, the Tea Party would endorse me.” (Courtesy of Seth Meyers) ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/44 "2011-07-23T19:50:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > And ditto **Nemo** ’s comment on the supposed moral superiority of the whites. I’m sure not seeing that at all. “morality” is in the eyes of the beholder. Why not concentrate on more concrete, objectively observable and measurable behaviors? Besides, when you say that whites were more immoral, do you mean on average? Or on the “median”? Or perhaps whereas most whites were decent, some small minority were extremely violent, perhaps in response to the hellish conditions they were put in? I certainly wouldn’t be surprised at the latter situation, given that whites and Hispanics are more capable of strategic thinking and goal-directed behavior than are American blacks. “Chaotic evil” alignment coupled with low intelligence is not a ticket to cohesive and organized violence in defense of your interests, as many black street gangs faced with Latino intrusion on their turf have found out. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/45 "2011-07-23T19:56:25Z")
Of course people get better in prison. Better at robbery, burglary, arson, blackmail, rape, forgery, murder … ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/46 "2011-07-24T01:35:59Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Of course people get better in prison. Better at robbery, burglary, arson, blackmail, rape, forgery, murder … No, that’s mostly a myth. Prison is not crime college like people think. Keep in mind that all prisoners have something in common - they were caught and convicted. Prisons are full of the guys who flunked crime. And one of the subtle effects of being imprisoned is you lose your edge. Prisoners are put in an environment where their lives are controlled - as a result they lose their sense of initiative and ability to react to change. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/47 "2011-07-24T01:40:44Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > The correct description is, “If I was any whiter, the Tea Party would endorse me.” No, I was rejected for Tea Party membership. They give an intelligence test as part of the application process and I passed it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/48 "2011-07-26T15:52:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think you underestimate us (in case you were unaware, I used to be A Power That Was in a prison). Screening and classifying prisoners was a big part of the job and we put a lot of effort into running different types of programs and assigned people into the appropriate areas. I am aware that there are many different programs and treatments (and yes, I know your background). But it was you who mentioned the “one method”; I was merely pointing out that, as you guys in the front lines know and apply every day, there simply can not be such a thing - unless by “one method” we mean one flexible enough and with enough choices to be tailored specifically for each case - and then the problem becomes one of information and of economic/manhour resources. The one people that way too often seem to think that a rigid One Method can work equally well for every case are the ones away from the prisons; the ideologists and speechwriters, and the people who’d be horrified if someone pointed out that their favorite barman is a former felon (me, I think it’s great - someone for whom the system worked, yay!). ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/49 "2011-07-26T16:13:23Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > “morality” is in the eyes of the beholder. Why not concentrate on more concrete, objectively observable and measurable behaviors? > > Besides, when you say that whites were more immoral, do you mean on average? Or on the “median”? Or perhaps whereas most whites were decent, some small minority were extremely violent, perhaps in response to the hellish conditions they were put in? > > I certainly wouldn’t be surprised at the latter situation, given that whites and Hispanics are more capable of strategic thinking and goal-directed behavior than are American blacks. “Chaotic evil” alignment coupled with low intelligence is not a ticket to cohesive and organized violence in defense of your interests, as many black street gangs faced with Latino intrusion on their turf have found out. After close on 2,000 posts, I’m amazed you’re trying this kind of thing on this board. In fact, doesn’t the subtitle make your mind explode?! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/50 "2011-07-26T17:15:33Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I am aware that there are many different programs and treatments (and yes, I know your background). But it was you who mentioned the “one method”; I was merely pointing out that, as you guys in the front lines know and apply every day, there simply can not be such a thing - unless by “one method” we mean one flexible enough and with enough choices to be tailored specifically for each case - and then the problem becomes one of information and of economic/manhour resources. The one people that way too often seem to think that a rigid One Method can work equally well for every case are the ones away from the prisons; the ideologists and speechwriters, and the people who’d be horrified if someone pointed out that their favorite barman is a former felon (me, I think it’s great - someone for whom the system worked, yay!). You appear to have misinterpreted my post. When I wrote that “nobody has found a method that consistently works” I didn’t mean that we were seeking a single universal process while ignoring a variety of other processes that collectively accomplish the goal. We’d be happy to use a hundred different methods if they worked. And in reality, we do try a whole variety of different ideas. But we often get individuals for whom no method seems to work. It comes back to what I said originally - ultimately a person has to rehabilitate himself. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/51 "2011-07-26T17:29:46Z")
And unforturnately, people with mental illnesses are often imprisoned for repeat offenses because of the mental illness. Our system of mental health care decided back in the '70’s that locking up people for being mentally ill was baaaaad - in all cases. Most people with mental illness do not need to be locked up - but there are some who simply cannot function in society. They cycle in and out of the mental health care and prison systems - creating havoc in the process. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/52 "2011-07-28T11:24:11Z")
What methods of rehabilitation have worked in the past, even if not consistently? All I know about the prison system is what I learned from Stephen King novels, and that they make license plates and telemarketing calls, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/53 "2011-07-28T15:00:24Z")
Some things which I know have worked are: - for my cousin: he got put in a program where he’d sleep at home and get taken to the jail by day. He’d have all his meals in prison and take part in the same work programs etc as if he’d slept in jail. It was enough (as had been his lawer’s bet when said lawyer asked for this program) to scare him shitless and get him to swear off drug-dealing, remember that he actually was literate (he’d previously done things like refuse to fill in a questionary asking for his name and contact info, required to work as a deliveryman for a local supermarket - “I don’t wanna do no work with no writing!”), eventually break up with his gf (who couldn’t understand “those guys are SCARY! I don’t want to go back there!”) and get increasingly better jobs until his current one (gas station manager). - from friends who work in this kind of programs: those training programs can work, but it often requires some follow-up (midway houses, assistance finding that first job after jail). Many of Spain’s prisoners are illiterate or illiterate in Spanish; simply being able to “do numbers and letters” improves their employability enormously. You don’t need to be able to write sonnets to be a supermarket restocker, but you do need to be able to read the to-restock list. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/54 "2011-07-28T21:38:07Z")
I actually feel sorry for those that have to be in prison, its really got to suck balls, and I’d imagine most come out with a hate for ‘The System’ as I’ve heard it called. Me personally, I’d rather be executed in the courtroom as soon as the judge gave me a sentence of over 2 months, that’s probably why I’ve never done anything to attract the attention of officers. I’ve never even had a speeding ticket (nor an accident for that matter, wonder if the two have something to do with each other :eek: ) and I’ve been driving for six or seven years now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/55 "2011-07-29T02:32:30Z")
As bad as our schools are, prisons are worse. If the goal is change people so that they don’t get convicted of crimes again, the numbers are ghastly. Education does work to a degree. My wife taught GED for a while in a prison and I looked at the figures. It did help some. Resources for working programs? Our state has cut out at least half the GED teachers. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/56 "2011-07-29T20:02:33Z")
Once people are convicted of felonies, they have a difficult time finding jobs. I would even think people convicted of certain misdeamenors have a difficult time finding jobs. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/57 "2011-07-29T21:03:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Many of Spain’s prisoners are illiterate or illiterate in Spanish; simply being able to “do numbers and letters” improves their employability enormously. You don’t need to be able to write sonnets to be a supermarket restocker, but you do need to be able to read the to-restock list. LOL. First they fail to deport a bunch of aliens, then they have to incarcerate them and teach them literacy to turn them into supermarket restockers. All that in a country with record high unemployment rates and financial troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785/58 "2011-07-30T10:39:33Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > LOL. First they fail to deport a bunch of aliens, then they have to incarcerate them and teach them literacy to turn them into supermarket restockers. All that in a country with record high unemployment rates and financial troubles. Glad that notion amuses you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-get-better-in-prison/589785.md?page=2)