# Do people still buy the Apple as the product of individualism? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 17, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348 "2010-02-17T16:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/21 "2010-02-17T20:17:34Z")
A non-technical issue would be that the company simply treats you badly. Happens all the time and it can cause people to switch brands. For example they ship products late, ship the wrong products , raise prices, etc. People switch brands all the time for various reasons. ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/22 "2010-02-17T20:24:23Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A non-technical issue would be that the company simply treats you badly. Happens all the time and it can cause people to switch brands. For example they ship products late, ship the wrong products , raise prices, etc. People switch brands all the time for various reasons. Ah, I thought you were talking about hardware specifically. If it’s a customer service issue, and you’re dedicated to sticking with the Mac OS, there are other sites and stores that sell Apple products – you don’t just have to buy directly from Apple. As for prices, Apple tends to keep them the same, but adds more features over time. Of course, Apple’s prices on some products are higher than their PC counterparts, but someone buying will know that right from the get – I’ve never seen Apple ambush people with a major price hike on its products. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/23 "2010-02-17T20:28:51Z")
But it’s much simpler if I dump HP and go to Toshiba, Dell, Lenovo, etc. rather than having to just look at other sources to buy Apple. The new iPhone commercial makes me laugh - they talk about surfing the web and talking at the same time. The tag line is “Can your network and your phone do that?” I always say “yes I can!” 🙂 I use T-Mobile and a G1. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/24 "2010-02-17T21:36:49Z")
Like many Mac users I dearly love the Macintosh operating system; but for 25 years I’ve thought that Apple Computer Inc has _no freaking clue_ what it is about their product that makes it great, and at any point they may fuck it up completely. They’ve come close on many occasions. I would not want to be in a world where Apple totally dominated the computer industry. Apple is at its best when folks _do_ have somewhere else to go, even if it means buying different hardware as well as running different software. One of the nicest general categories of computer software is INTERNET APPLICATIONS. A big part of what makes it nice is that I can choose Eudora as my email browser, Firefox as my web browser, Hogwasher as my usenet newsgroup reader, Fire as my chat software, Fetch as my FTP software, etc… _and they all play nicely with each other_, handing off protocol commands to the designated protocol handler. If Apple OR Microsoft had had a complete chokehold on the operating system universe you either WOULD BE using Outlook and Internet Explorer (and no other email program would open up if you clicked a mailto: link in IE nor would any other web browser receive instructions to execute an http URL if you clicked on it from within an email message) or you WOULD BE using Safari and Apple Mail. There would BE no standard wide-open “pick any application you want and designate it as your email app of choice” type protocols. Look at the integration of iCal / Address Book and how they integrate with the other Apple i-apps. Look at iMovie and iDVD and iTunes, and GarageBand. Apple would prefer, rather strongly, that a similarly closed-off and exclusive intra-application API controlled how Safari and Mail and iChat deal with various internet protocols, and in my opinion the only reason they have not taken away OS level support for standard mailto, http, aim, nntp, ftp, etc protocols is that they AREN’T the only OS in town and people expect flexibility there. Microsoft’s no better (as if you didn’t know that). They only grudgingly make some concessions to email programs that are NOT Outlook (and Exchange Server can be downright nasty about it); & taking a somewhat different angle of approach to it than Apple, they’ve folded in this and that “modular” feature into Outlook until it’s an email program, calendaring program, newsgroup reader, address book… and do they let you pick some exterior “not invented in Redmond” app from within Outlook to use for those features and integrate with them instead? Is the bear catholic? Apple makes some damn nice things. I’m happy to see them doing well after the dismal 1990s. But please, no Apple monopoly on the world of personal computing. That Microsoft would be awful in such a position is no more than a _tu quoque_. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/25 "2010-02-17T21:52:52Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > That’s what funny, Microsoft is far more Democratic, if you will, and Apple is far molre authoritarian, IMO. I agree with this. At the same time though, Steve Jobs has done a brilliant job since he returned to the company in 1997. (Remember the Wired magazine [cover story](http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.06/apple.html) from 1997? It listed 101 ways that Apple could be saved. At the time, its future was very uncertain and one of the options offered by Wired was for Apple to sell out to Motorola or IBM.) ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/26 "2010-02-17T22:08:44Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > That’s what funny, Microsoft is far more Democratic, if you will, and Apple is far molre authoritarian, IMO. I think both of those statements are somewhat exaggerated – Windows Genuine Advantage, anyone? That said, the fact that you still can’t play back a Blu-Ray on a Mac is kind of baffling. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/27 "2010-02-17T22:48:43Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > I think that some people will continue thinking this way as long as Apple is smaller than Microsoft. 🙂 (I have seen a runour to the effect that Apple could pass Microsoft in either sales or market capitalisation this year, but I don’t know where I read that and am trying to find it.) [Here’s the link.](http://lowendmac.com/nash/10tn/bigger-than-microsoft.html) It’s an opinion column from Tim Nash. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/28 "2010-02-17T23:43:09Z")
> [@SpartanDC](#): > > Windows Genuine Advantage, anyone? I’m probably a bit out of date on this, but doesn’t WGA still allow security updates on pirated copies? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/29 "2010-02-18T01:03:11Z")
> [@SpartanDC](#): > > They can go to the Apple store – there’s no Dell, HP, Acer or Toshiba store, on the other hand. The nearest Apple Store is about an hour and a half away. The nearest non-“Apple Store[sup] **TM** [/sup]” store that I can find that services Apple computers is about an hour’s drive away. By contrast, there are at _least_ four places in town I could take any brand of PC to for repair or service. The closest is less than a mile and a half away. > [@Baron Greenback](#): > > I’m probably a bit out of date on this, but doesn’t WGA still allow security updates on pirated copies? I don’t know, but anyone who can find a pirated copy of Windows can find a crack for WGA. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/30 "2010-02-18T01:11:17Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’m probably a bit out of date on this, but doesn’t WGA still allow security updates on pirated copies? Besides, even if WGA doesn’t allow one to install security updates on pirated copies, how does that make Microsoft authoritarian? Anyone remember the famous speech about Linux called “The Cathedral and the Bazaar”? I think it was meant as a comparison of open-source development vs commercial software development, but I think the analogy also applies when comparing the Mac and PC worlds. Nothing happens in the Mac world without the blessing of the high priest Steve Jobs, while the PC world is a very competitive environment. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/31 "2010-02-18T01:24:41Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Besides, even if WGA doesn’t allow one to install security updates on pirated copies, how does that make Microsoft authoritarian? > > Anyone remember the famous speech about Linux called “The Cathedral and the Bazaar”? I think it was meant as a comparison of open-source development vs commercial software development, but I think the analogy also applies when comparing the Mac and PC worlds. Nothing happens in the Mac world without the blessing of the high priest Steve Jobs, while the PC world is a very competitive environment. That’s only true for hardware. The Mac has an open (arguably more open than Windows) software development environment. I don’t have to get Jobs’ blessing to make and market a Mac App. As for the iPhone, once the other smartphone platforms are as infested with malware as Windows is, the wisdom of creating a closed ecosystem will be apparent. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/32 "2010-02-18T05:17:46Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > That’s only true for hardware. > The Mac has an open (arguably more open than Windows) software development environment. I don’t have to get Jobs’ blessing to make and market a Mac App. > > As for the iPhone, once the other smartphone platforms are as infested with malware as Windows is, the wisdom of creating a closed ecosystem will be apparent. Why? You just admitted that the Mac is not closed, and it has little to no malware. And, unless there is one monolithic smartphone OS like Windows on PCs, it’s never going to get that bad. In fact, right now, the only malware out there was written by the AV people. And you’d better bet they’ll target the iPhone, as it is quite popular. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/33 "2010-02-18T05:42:02Z")
I grew up on Macs (and Apple 2’s) and I’m used to them, but I’m not an Apple zealot. I wish I could get OSX on a cheap PC. The main reason I use Macs is that they have an operating system that is not highly vulnerable to malware. It astounds me that it’s considered acceptable for people to be getting viruses all the time. If it weren’t for that, I would probably go with Windows in order to have a cheaper computer and a wider selection of software. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/34 "2010-02-18T14:10:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Why? You just admitted that the Mac is not closed, and it has little to no malware. And, unless there is one monolithic smartphone OS like Windows on PCs, it’s never going to get that bad. In fact, right now, the only malware out there was written by the AV people. And you’d better bet they’ll target the iPhone, as it is quite popular. Why? Why what? You mean about the iPhone? If so, the answer is: iPhone software is vetted. If you have a completely open market, where anyone can write and sell software, you are going to get unscrupulous applications. It’s much more of a risk on a phone - it’s much easier to harvest valuable information. There is already malware for jailbroken iPhones. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/35 "2010-02-19T15:33:04Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Why? Why what? > You mean about the iPhone? > > If so, the answer is: iPhone software is vetted. If you have a completely open market, where anyone can write and sell software, you are going to get unscrupulous applications. It’s much more of a risk on a phone - it’s much easier to harvest valuable information. There is already malware for jailbroken iPhones. Yeah, and I’m a grown-up who should be able to decide if I choose to take the risk. But Apple won’t allow me to make that choice–they do their damnedest to make jailbreaking as difficult as possible, they release phony non-upgrades which do nothing but un-jailbreak the iPhone (the current one, for instance) and are generally authoritarian douchebags. The iPhone is my first piece of Apple hardware and it’s likely my last largely because I don’t like being told what software I can and cannot install. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348/36 "2010-02-19T16:06:24Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > But it’s much simpler if I dump HP and go to Toshiba, Dell, Lenovo, etc. rather than having to just look at other sources to buy Apple. > > The new iPhone commercial makes me laugh - they talk about surfing the web and talking at the same time. The tag line is “Can your network and your phone do that?” I always say “yes I can!” 🙂 I use T-Mobile and a G1. Not to mention the guy juggling 2 phones … you use a headset on one and surf the other … easy peasy. Morons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-people-still-buy-the-apple-as-the-product-of-individualism/529348.md?page=1)