# Do political subdivisions in other countries have their own armed forces, as with US states? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056 "2010-11-09T17:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/21 "2010-11-09T22:37:03Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > > When the RCMP carries out its duties under those contracts, it acts as a provincial police force. > > This I didn’t know. What’s the difference, legally speaking, between the RCMP acting as a federal police force, and the RCMP acting as a provincial police force? Well, for one thing, the Supreme Court has held that when they act as the provincial police force in New Brunwsick, they have to comply with the more generous language requirements that apply to New Brunswick. Under the [Charter, s. 20(1](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/9.html#codesc:7-bo-ga:l_I-gb:s_16-se:20)), the federal government is required to provide bilingual services in areas where demand reqches a particular point. New Brunswick, on the other hand, is required to provide bilingual services throughout the province. The Court held, in Société des acadiens et acadiennes, that when acting as the provincial police force in New Brunswick, the RCMP were bound by s. 16(2) and had to provide bilingual services throughout. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/22 "2010-11-09T22:38:48Z")
seems like 20 states in the USA have state military forces other than guard units, some maybe inactive or small. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/23 "2010-11-09T22:49:47Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Wouldn’t it depend on the source of the laws that they are enforcing? > > In Australia, the police that most people deal with are those of the states and territories. There are no local police forces, and the [Australian Federal Police](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Federal_Police) only enforce federal laws. Since in Australia criminal law is predominantly a state matter, that gives the state police forces a relatively large role. > > I understand that in Canada criminal law is mainly a federal matter, not a provincial matter. Nope. In Canada, Parliament has exclusive jurisdiction to enact criminal law, and has done so by enacting the _Criminal Code_. However, as a matter of policy, Parliament has decentralised the enforcement of the criminal law, by providing that the administration of the _Criminal Code_ is left to the Provinces. As well, the \*Criminal Code \*recognizes any peace officer under provincial law as a peace officer for the enforcement of the Code. So, provincial and municipal police officers are the ones who enforce the _Criminal Code_. The RCMP enforces the _Criminal Code_ in those provinces where the RCMP is the provincial police force (and in the three territories). The Ontario Provincial Police and the Sûreté du Québec enforce it in those two provinces. In Ontario and Quebec, the RCMP only enforce federal laws other than the _Criminal Code_ (drug laws, income tax, smuggling, national security, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/24 "2010-11-09T22:52:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The Court held, in Société des acadiens et acadiennes, … Sorry - forgot to include the link: [Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick Inc. v. Canada, 2008 SCC 15, [2008] 1 S.C.R. 383](http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2008/2008scc15/2008scc15.html). ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/25 "2010-11-09T23:32:19Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Isn’t the title of “Commander in Chief” a little misleading? Sure, under specific circumstances he can direct operations in his own state, but if the DoD says otherwise, its tough noogies, right? Only if the National Guard units in question are called into federal service. [Possibly useful Staff Report](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2880/whats-the-national-guard-doing-fighting-overseas). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/26 "2010-11-10T01:20:59Z")
One of my friend’s father quit the Arkansas National Guard because there was a possibility that his unit would be nationalized and sent to Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/27 "2010-11-10T02:26:17Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > For the National Guard units, yeah, but not for the Texas State Guard. They can not be federalized. Is that a constitutional limitation or a statutory one? For example could Congress simply pass a law saying all state guards/militias are liable to be federalized and have it stand up in court? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/28 "2010-11-10T02:40:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The RCMP enforces the _Criminal Code_ in those provinces where the RCMP is the provincial police force (and in the three territories). Oh, and just to round it out - in those provinces where the RCMP acts as the provincial police force, they also enforce provincial laws, such as highway traffic laws. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/29 "2010-11-10T02:45:14Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Is that a constitutional limitation or a statutory one? For example could Congress simply pass a law saying all state guards/militias are liable to be federalized and have it stand up in court? I don’t know offhand, but I imagine there’d definitely be a strong challenge, as that’d be seen as intruding on state sovereignty with precedents going all the way back to 1789. What’s next, Congress confiscating state budgets or demanding state judges become federal employees? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/30 "2010-11-10T02:53:42Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I don’t know offhand, but I imagine there’d definitely be a strong challenge, as that’d be seen as intruding on state sovereignty Hey, we lost a war about that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/31 "2010-11-10T03:28:29Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Not really true. National Guard units are state military organizations which are under the command of the governor or territorial executive and overseen, trained and administered by the National Guard Bureau of the DoD. They only become federal troops when subject to a federalization order by the president. Another thing is that promotion and officer appointments are done by the state, not by the DoD. States run their own officer candidate schools, and the highest state military officers are appointed to their posts by the Governor. The feds can federalize the Guard units, and help equip them, but in general, they’re state forces, not federal forces. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/32 "2010-11-10T04:03:26Z")
Quoth **friedo** : > [@](#): > > Not really true. National Guard units are state military organizations which are under the command of the governor or territorial executive and overseen, trained and administered by the National Guard Bureau of the DoD. They only become federal troops when subject to a federalization order by the president. If the President can call them up at will, in what sense are they not always federal troops? Just because the federal government usually delegates them to the states, doesn’t mean that they’re under state control. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/33 "2010-11-10T04:08:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **friedo** :If the President can call them up at will, in what sense are they not always federal troops? Just because the federal government usually delegates them to the states, doesn’t mean that they’re under state control. See the [Central High Crisis](http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=718), as embarrassing as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/34 "2010-11-10T04:08:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Hey, we lost a war about that. 🙂 States are still sovereign entitites, I believe. They have to honor the contract they entered upon joining the Union, including limitations they agreed on their own sovereign powers, and can’t just leave it at will without consent of their other contract partners. But that doesn’t mean (say) Arnold Schartzenegger takes orders from either the president or Congress in any way whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/35 "2010-11-10T04:11:36Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > States are still sovereign entitites, I believe. They have to honor the contract they entered upon joining the Union, including limitations they agreed on their own sovereign powers, and can’t just leave it at will without consent of their other contract partners. But that doesn’t mean (say) Arnold Schartzenegger takes orders from either the president or Congress in any way whatsoever. He does if he wants the US freeways going through Kalifornia repaired. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/36 "2010-11-10T04:19:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He does if he wants the US freeways going through Kalifornia repaired. 🙂 California theoretically could choose to decline federal highway funds and other federal disbursments. Nobody in the state government, from Schwartzenegger on down, could be fired, reprimanded or sanctioned by the feds if that’s what they chose to do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/37 "2010-11-10T04:26:48Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > California theoretically could choose to decline federal highway funds and other federal disbursments. Nobody in the state government, from Schwartzenegger on down, could be fired, reprimanded or sanctioned by the feds if that’s what they chose to do. Of course not, but they would be in worse financial trouble than they are now This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 9 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/38 "2010-11-10T05:06:04Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Is that a constitutional limitation or a statutory one? For example could Congress simply pass a law saying all state guards/militias are liable to be federalized and have it stand up in court? I believe it’s a statutory distinction that goes back to one of the Militia Acts (there have been several.) > [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **friedo** :If the President can call them up at will, in what sense are they not always federal troops? Just because the federal government usually delegates them to the states, doesn’t mean that they’re under state control. Every able-bodied male between certain ages is subject to conscription, whether you’re in a National Guard unit or not. Tweak the statute a bit and you can make that every person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. By this definition, everyone in the country is a federal troop. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/39 "2010-11-10T05:16:09Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Every able-bodied male between certain ages is subject to conscription, whether you’re in a National Guard unit or not. Tweak the statute a bit and you can make that every person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. By this definition, everyone in the country is a federal troop. . . . who is hereby ordered by their national Commander in Chief to purchase health insurance from an approved provider. (sorry, did I say that out loud?) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056/40 "2010-11-10T05:17:21Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > from Wikipedia article on German Unification: > > So apparently these several larger German states for awhile retained separate armed forces financed out of their own pocket and staffed by their own citizens. > > This is in stark contrast to the practices of centralized states like America or Russia to tightly control the military in a centralized fashion and send draftees to serve far away from home mixed with people from other districts. Needless to say, as well, it’s easier to serve close to home in a smaller country like Germany. The US Army was much less centralized back then, though, too. During the Civil War, some (all?) regiments were raised by individual states and comprised of citizens of those states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-political-subdivisions-in-other-countries-have-their-own-armed-forces-as-with-us-states/560056.md?page=3)