# Do popes ever resign? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617 "2004-06-04T14:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![King\_Eumenes\_II\_of\_Pergamum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8e7dd6/32.png) [@King\_Eumenes\_II\_of\_Pergamum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_Eumenes_II_of_Pergamum)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/1 "2004-06-04T14:02:21Z")
I’m not talking about old-time popes, Medici or ancient, but modern popes. I know the current pope has Parkinson’s disease. Would he step down if it became impossible for him to meet or talk comfortably with others? If he became incapacitated, would someone be the “pro tem” pope, or could they actually retire him without his consent? Is the position necessarily for life? Can he be deposed (or forced to resign) by, say, caucus of cardinals? What if he went crazy, or did something scandalous like marrying an American divorcée (like certain kings of late)? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/2 "2004-06-04T14:09:47Z")
The Pope can do whatever he wants, but modern popes stay on until they die. The issue came up during Paul VI’s reign and he refused to consider the it. Ultimately, it is the Pope who would decide to step down. He is the ultimate authority, and there is no mechanism to overrule him. It’s extremely rare for any pope at any time to step down. It has happened – IIRC, someone left to become a hermit. Other popes have been deposed, but usually they or their deposer was named an antipope and not considered official. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/3 "2004-06-04T14:16:53Z")
To paraphrase an ex-President, “It’s hell finding work when you’ve been Pope.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/4 "2004-06-04T14:47:09Z")
For some reason, when I saw the title of this thread, I though of making little Bishop of Rome-shaped marshmallows and selling them at Easter. “Marshmallow Popes”. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/5 "2004-06-04T15:17:18Z")
Well, Pope Joan did take maternity leave… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/6 "2004-06-04T17:00:09Z")
I hate to ruin a perfectly good smart-ass comment, but “Pope Joan” is a myth invented by Protestants. As for the OP, there’s no reason why John Paul couldn’t resign (or abdicate or retire or whatever you want to call it), but historically the papacy has almost always been a lifetime appointment. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/7 "2004-06-04T18:00:39Z")
This Pope has stated that he will not step down. “Jesus didn’t step down from the cross”, he says. I’d like to call him and say “He was nailed on, Brainiac!”. ---
**Author:** ![P\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a587f6/32.png) [@P\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P_T)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/8 "2004-06-04T18:02:33Z")
If I remember right, the current Pope has more or less refused to even consider resigning. I’m not catholic, so it doesn’t mean a whole lot to me, but I really think there should be some system in place to force the retirement. The last few times I’ve seen him speak it’s been pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/9 "2004-06-04T18:13:16Z")
Only one Pope, Celestine V, ever resigned and that was in the 13th century. I know you didn’t want medieval examples, but hey this set a precedent. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/10 "2004-06-04T18:48:02Z")
Concerning Paul VI - I recall reading that he wanted to retire, but was strongly advised not to. He publically voiced the wish, according to the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_VI) on him: > [@](#): > > As he became increasingly elderly, Pope Paul openly spoke of abdicating the papal throne and going into retirement. As in other areas, his indecision led to no decision; he remained in the papacy until his death. We’ve discussed this question before. The Vatican has adequate canon law in place to cover the situation of either an abdicated or incapacitated Pope. Commentators seem to have a strong belief that the institution prefers the latter - they would rather have a vegetative Pope on life support with all exercise of the office deferred to a group of senior Cardinals than deal with the awkwardness of a retired Pope existing. Couple that to John Paul II’s apparent desire to stay in the office, and the likely fact that a lot of senior Vatican officials have a vested interest in the current administration (as in political heirarchies everywhere), and it makes it likely that the only way JPII is going out of office is following assumption of room temperature. Vatican politics is very insular, and it is hard to get a read on it from the outside, but I’m willing to bet that apart from JPII’s closest allies, a lot of Vatican insiders secretely wish that the current Pope would hurry up and die, so that a new guy could get elected and things could get back to normal. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/11 "2004-06-05T03:19:13Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I hate to ruin a perfectly good smart-ass comment, but “Pope Joan” is a myth invented by Protestants. Not according to the [Catholic Encyclopædia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08407a.htm). The legend pre-dates the Reformation, and in fact appears to have been accepted as true by the Roman Catholic church at one time: > [@](#): > > **Popess Joan** > > The fable about a female pope, who afterwards bore the name of Johanna (Joan), is **first noticed in the middle of the thirteenth century.** > > VARIATIONS OF THE FABLE > > First Version: Jean de Mailly. The first who appears to have had cognizance of it was the Dominican chronicler Jean de Mailly (Archiv der Gesellschaft fur altere deutsche Geschichte, xii, 17 sq., 469 sq.) from whom another Dominican, Etienne de Bourbon (d. 1261), adopted the tale into his work on the “Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost.” > > … > > EARLY EVALUATIONS OF THE LEGEND > > Credulous Acceptance. **In the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries this popess was already counted as an historical personage,** whose existence no one doubted. She had her place among the carved busts which stood in Siena Cathedral. Under Clement VIII, and at his request, she was transformed into Pope Zacharias. The heretic Hus, in the defense of his false doctrine before the Council of Constance, referred to the popess, and no one offered to question the fact of her existence. She is not found in the “Liber Pontificalis” nor among the papal portraits in St. Paul’s Outside the Walls, at Rome. > > Critical Evaluation. This alleged popess is a pure figment of the imagination. In the **fifteenth** century, after the awakening of historical criticism, a few scholars like Aeneas Silvius (Epist., I, 30) and Platina (Vitae Pontificum, No. 106) saw the untenableness of the story. Since the **sixteenth century** Catholic historians began to deny the existence of the popess, e.g., Onofrio Panvinio (Vitae Pontificum, Venice, 1557), Aventinus (Annales Boiorum, lib. IV), Baronius (Annales ad a. 879, n. 5), and others. Which isn’t to deny that some Protestants used the myth as a whipping boy for Roman Catholicism, as the same article indicates, but it’s quite clear that the myth pre-dates Protestantism. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/12 "2004-06-05T03:40:49Z")
Pope Richard XXXVII resigned in 1974 ---
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/13 "2004-06-05T04:29:59Z")
> [@](#): > > **danceswithcats** > Pope Richard XXXVII resigned in 1974 The [Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm) has Paul VI (1963-78). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/14 "2004-06-05T04:35:11Z")
> [@the first supraliminal](#): > > The [Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm) has Paul VI (1963-78). Well, let me make one thing perfectly clear… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/15 "2004-06-05T04:36:30Z")
Damn, I thought of a better one. Yes, he resigned after Holy Watergate. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/16 "2004-06-05T07:53:27Z")
At some point, one of the cardinals is just going to wind up shoving the Pope down the stairs … for Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/17 "2004-06-05T13:39:18Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > At some point, one of the cardinals is just going to wind up shoving the Pope down the stairs … for Jesus. Dead Pool tiebreaker! ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/18 "2004-06-05T13:51:22Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > At some point, one of the cardinals is just going to wind up shoving the Pope down the stairs … for Jesus. Unlikely, as **yabob** pointed out. Nothing makes the cardinals close to the pope more powerful than a weak pope. An election of a new pope would mean that a candidate had to win the votes of a large number (IIRC ca. 250) cardinals from all over the world. A strong new pope could be a severe blow to the current curia and result in drastic changes. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/19 "2004-06-05T14:23:43Z")
Is there any canon law for what to do if a pope is physically able-bodied and able to communicate (more or less - I’m referring to someone that you can’t just “leave in a corner”) but clearly mentally deranged, or is that simply considered impossible since God would never allow that to happen? If (using a ludicrous example just to make it easier to illustrate the point) the pope ex cathedra ordained that the 10 commandments were a fraud inserted to the bible by ancient do-gooders and did not need to be followed, what could the College of Cardinals do? ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617/20 "2004-06-05T14:28:03Z")
Aren’t popes supposedly chosen by God? Then isn’t an abdication like saying, “Hey God, we don’t agree with you.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-popes-ever-resign/248617.md?page=2)