# Do priests hearing confession have an obligation to report serious crimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555 "2009-10-21T01:23:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/41 "2009-10-21T19:16:24Z")
If the priest is convinced the confessing person is truly guilt of rape, murder, arson resulting in death(s) and so on, they should immediately notify the cops; otherwise they are not rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s as opposed to that which is Gods. If I tell a priest that I killed, raped, someone, (anyone) or that I am a pedophile, then I should expect to be turned in. IMHO; YMMV. (I don’t believe in diving retribution; if I do a crime now, and am caught, I expect to be punished now and not in some problematic future. What would the priest do if a non-catholic entered a confessional booth and confessed to capital crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/42 "2009-10-21T19:35:19Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > What would the priest do if a non-catholic entered a confessional booth and confessed to capital crimes? How would they know? > [@](#): > > otherwise they are not rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s as opposed to that which is Gods. I think this is cherry picking at its worst. A priest is not an agent of Caesar. He’s a soul collector, not a tax collector. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/43 "2009-10-21T19:50:25Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Is it? It’s not a confession per se (action hasn’t taken place), and the priest calling up Rome to say, “better tighten up security this weekend, someone confessed to wanting to kill Johnny Ratz today” doesn’t exactly reveal any information about the confessor, does it? It increases the chance the confessor will be caught when he shows up to do the deed. It’s not a direct revelation of his identity, but it is an _indirect_ one. And even indirect revelations are specifically forbidden by canon law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/44 "2009-10-21T20:07:08Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > If the priest is convinced the confessing person is truly guilt of rape, murder, arson resulting in death(s) and so on, they should immediately notify the cops; otherwise they are not rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s as opposed to that which is Gods. > > If I tell a priest that I killed, raped, someone, (anyone) or that I am a pedophile, then I should expect to be turned in. IMHO; YMMV. (I don’t believe in diving retribution; if I do a crime now, and am caught, I expect to be punished now and not in some problematic future. Well, I guess if we had a thread about “What are **LouisB** ’s expectations regarding priest-penitent conversations?” then your answer would be relevant. Here, however, where the question is what rules actually apply to priests, from the church and from secular law, the answer is different. > [@](#): > > What would the priest do if a non-catholic entered a confessional booth and confessed to capital crimes? Interestingly enough, a similar question was confronted in _Mockatis v. Harcleroad_, 104 F3d 1522 (1997). Fr. Mockatis, a Catholic priest, regularly visited the Lane County Jail in Portland, Oregon, to administer the Sacrament of Penance to the inmates. One inmate, Conan Wayne Hale, made arrangements to speak to Fr. Mockatis, although he was not Catholic. At the time, Hale was confined pending a trial on murder charges. His conversation with the priest was taped, as were all conversations at the jail, and a detective secured a search warrant for the tape by submitting an affidavit that claimed the tape likely contained the admission of the murder. The case was resolved on other grounds, but the commentary made clear that the recording could not have been used against Hale. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/45 "2009-10-21T20:22:56Z")
I wonder how many priests admitted in the confessional to other priests that they were molesting kids. I suspect many did and, of course, the listening priests would have done nothing about it other than to advise restraint. Meanwhile the abuse continued unchecked. One needs a strong stomach indeed to support the absolute sanctity of the confessional in such circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/46 "2009-10-21T20:36:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > One needs a strong stomach indeed to support the absolute sanctity of the confessional in such circumstances. Or you could redirect your anger and vitriol to an area of the church that actually had an effect on the continuation of the abuse - church administration, up to and including Rome. > [@](#): > > of course, the listening priests would have done nothing about it other than to advise restraint. No. There are any number of things that could have been done that weren’t. Namely, stop putting that priest in contact with children. The confessional has nothing to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/47 "2009-10-21T20:43:46Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > No. There are any number of things that could have been done that weren’t. Namely, stop putting that priest in contact with children. The confessional has nothing to do with that. Of course it does. The priest would be using information he gained in the confessional. He would have to explain to his superiors why no contact with children should be allowed. Even if he said nothing else his superiors would guess the reason. How does this jibe with absolute sanctity? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/48 "2009-10-21T20:47:56Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Of course it does. The priest would be using information he gained in the confessional. He would have to explain to his superiors why no contact with children should be allowed. Even if he said nothing else his superiors would guess the reason. How does this jibe with absolute sanctity? He could simply use the information he gained from parents or children complaining about being molested. If your suggestion is true, that’s the reasoning we would have heard from the church as they tried to defend their (non)actions. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/49 "2009-10-21T21:23:02Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > He could simply use the information he gained from parents or children complaining about being molested. If your suggestion is true, that’s the reasoning we would have heard from the church as they tried to defend their (non)actions. Yes, that’s a simple out. _If the children were complaining._ And it’s well known that many molested children don’t. How do you tell your devout parents that the parish priest is diddling you? Not an easy task, especially for a young child. Many of those molested didn’t come forward till years later. And of course we didn’t hear it from the Church as they tried to defend themselves. It reflects badly on the confessional and they would not be free to talk about such confessions anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/50 "2009-10-21T22:16:35Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > **It reflects badly on the confessional** and they would not be free to talk about such confessions anyway. If they talked about the confessions, \*that \*would reflect badly on the confessional as well. I seem to remember that priests typically have one particular confessor they go to - specifically not their superior. That would be one particular reason this excuse never came up. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/51 "2009-10-21T22:35:14Z")
I wonder if after the [Judith Miller](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/06/reporters.contempt/index.html) case many journalists got themselves [online priesthoods](http://www.onlinepriesthood.org/index.php/memberhsip.html) so they can use this to their advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/52 "2009-10-21T23:34:30Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I wonder how many priests admitted in the confessional to other priests that they were molesting kids. I suspect many did and, of course, the listening priests would have done nothing about it other than to advise restraint. Meanwhile the abuse continued unchecked. One needs a strong stomach indeed to support the absolute sanctity of the confessional in such circumstances. And suppose they admitted to their lawyer that they had molested kids. What do you believe the lawyer should do? See, here’s the thing you’re missing: the priest (and the lawyer) serve a function that is considered valuable enough to society that society has by law, in all fifty states and the federal system, carved out absolute exceptions to the general rules that guide human beings here. Whe a priest hears a confession, he’s not acting as a person; when a lawyer hears an admission, he’s not acting as a person. They are serving valuable roles, roles that we as a society have validated as necessary. I’m quite certain priests have heard things that have made them feel sick. I KNOW lawyers have. But neither can simply abandon their role to serve their own personal sense of decency. If they do, they’re in the wrong damn job. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/53 "2009-10-21T23:37:36Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > My grandmother, when she taught my Confirmation class, used an example of someone who embezzled money. The priest may tell them that if they truly were repentant that they would turn themselves in. Part of being sorry means that you are willing to pay for your crimes. So I’m assuming if the murderer refused to turn himself In then the priest can refuse to absolve him. Yes. “If the confessor is in no doubt about the penitent’s disposition ..” is the key here. Absent repentence, the priest cannot absolve him. The secrecy remains, of course, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/54 "2009-10-21T23:45:41Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Are there sins that a priest can’t abolve? Like the ones where the sinner is effectively saying, “I’m gonna do this heinous deed and then confess it so I don’t have to burn?” We’ve already discussed the absence of true repentence as a barrier to absolution. Interestingly, there is a sin which a priest may not, by law, absolve, although even then there’s an out of sorts. A priest may not absolve his own partner in a sin against the Sixth Commandment… unless there is the grave danger of death. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > So, we’ve established that it’s against the rules of the church for the priest to say anything, and we’ve established that it’s against the rules of the state to force the priest to say anything, but I still have a question: If the priest decides to break the rules of the church, can his testimony be used in court? It depends. In some jurisdictions, the legal privilege belongs to the penitent, and if he refuses to waive it, the priest’s testimony would not be admissible. In others, however, the privilege belongs to the priest, meaning that although he cannot be compelled to testify, if he chooses to, it’s admisible. > [@](#): > > What if the testimony of the priest is not about the confession, per se, but about something he observed during the confession? That would almost certainly fall under the “indirectly” prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/55 "2009-10-21T23:46:45Z")
Though what about a confession in which someone says they are GOING to commit a serious crime. Presumably the priest is bound to attempt to talking them out of it (and refuse absolution if they fail). But legally speaking can they be prosecuted for failing report them to the police (as I believe even a lawyer or doctor could be) ? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/56 "2009-10-21T23:54:03Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Though what about a confession in which someone says they are GOING to commit a serious crime. Presumably the priest is bound to attempt to talking them out of it (and refuse absolution if they fail). But legally speaking can they be prosecuted for failing report them to the police (as I believe even a lawyer or doctor could be) ? No, the priest’s privilege is absolute; he may not be prosecuted. There is an excepton for a lawyer’s privilege “…when a client knowingly seeks legal counsel to further a continuing or future crime…” In such cases, known generally as the crime-fraud exception, the attorney-client privilege does not apply. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/57 "2009-10-22T00:04:27Z")
Courts have ruled against privilege when it comes to future crimes and crimes involving children, something the Catholic priests themselves cover up and confess to each other. I would not bet in absolute privilege from the authorities in these cases. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/58 "2009-10-22T00:13:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, the priest’s privilege is absolute; he may not be prosecuted. > > There is an excepton for a lawyer’s privilege “…when a client knowingly seeks legal counsel to further a continuing or future crime…” In such cases, known generally as the crime-fraud exception, the attorney-client privilege does not apply. Let me point out here the one further exception to lawyer-client confidentiality: when a lawyer is aware of information a deceased client imparted to him which may affect an ongoing police investigation not relating to his late client’s affairs, he may impart the bare fact he has that information to a judge, and allow the relevant parties to seek a court order for him to divulge it. He may not volunteer it absent such an order. This was made clear here in North Carolina last year in a precedent-setting case. In the absence of such an order, the lawyer would have been forced by lawyer-client confidentiality to take the information that resolved an unrelated case to the grave, his late client not of course being able to release him to speak of it. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/59 "2009-10-22T07:37:55Z")
[quote=“Munch, post:42, topic:514555”] How would they know? QUOTE] “Hey father, I’m not a catholic but I feel the need to confess that…” ---
**Author:** ![Recliner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e57/32.png) [@Recliner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recliner)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/60 "2009-10-22T08:08:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _Mockatis v. Harcleroad_, 104 F3d 1522 (1997). Fr. Mockatis, a Catholic priest, regularly visited the Lane County Jail in Portland, Oregon, to administer the Sacrament of Penance to the inmates. One inmate, Conan Wayne Hale, made arrangements to speak to Fr. Mockatis, although he was not Catholic. At the time, Hale was confined pending a trial on murder charges. His conversation with the priest was taped, as were all conversations at the jail, and a detective secured a search warrant for the tape by submitting an affidavit that claimed the tape likely contained the admission of the murder. I must say, I’m astonished that precedent on this only dates to 1997. That said, I wonder if the concept of the taping itself has been challenged – I’d assume that its at least come up in the past. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555.md?page=4)