# Do priests hearing confession have an obligation to report serious crimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555 "2009-10-21T01:23:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/61 "2009-10-22T12:01:30Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > Courts have ruled against privilege when it comes to future crimes and crimes involving children, something the Catholic priests themselves cover up and confess to each other. I would not bet in absolute privilege from the authorities in these cases. What were those specific court cases? So far as I’m aware, the priest-penitent privilege has never been found to contain a crime-fraud or future crimes exception. To pick an example I’m most familiar with, the Code of Virginia, § 19.2-271.3 provides: > [@](#): > > No regular minister, priest, rabbi or accredited practitioner over the age of eighteen years, of any religious organization or denomination usually referred to as a church, shall be required in giving testimony as a witness in any criminal action to disclose **any information communicated to him** by the accused in a confidential manner, properly entrusted to him in his professional capacity and necessary to enable him to discharge the functions of his office according to the usual course of his practice or discipline, where such person so communicating such information about himself or another is seeking spiritual counsel and advice relative to and growing out of the information so imparted. (emphasis added) So what tactic do you imagine “the authorities” might use to get around that explicit codification of absolute privilege? ---
**Author:** ![fandango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5ac83/32.png) [@fandango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fandango)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/62 "2009-10-22T19:50:04Z")
It seems to me that the priest could squeal on the confessor, and then himself run to confession and seek absolution. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/63 "2009-10-22T20:01:09Z")
> [@fandango](#): > > It seems to me that the priest could squeal on the confessor, and then himself run to confession and seek absolution. Problem solved. First, he obviously would not be repentant of his sin in doing so. He would also (a) lose his job as a priest – priests who break the seal of the confessional are, I believe, automatically excommunicated – and, having forsworn an oath, would not be able to hold a job requiring that anyone trust him thereafter, meaning he would have to become unskilled labor. It’s quite a step down from, “The body of Christ, the bread of heaven” to “Do you want fries with that?” ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/64 "2009-10-22T22:35:31Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > …priests who break the seal of the confessional are, I believe, automatically excommunicated… That’s correct; breaking the seal entails a _latae sententiae_ excommunication which can only be lifted by the Pope himself. ---
**Author:** ![fandango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5ac83/32.png) [@fandango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fandango)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/65 "2009-10-22T22:38:58Z")
Does it matter at all whether the confessor is Catholic (or, in general, the same religion as the priest?) ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/66 "2009-10-23T09:38:20Z")
Well, no offense to any and all Catholics as the confessional has worked to my advantage several times inasmuch as an old girlfriend of mine was Catholic. When her conscience began to trouble her concerning her propensity to engage in any and all sexual activity, she would have me drive her to various catholic churches where she would confess her sinful ways, be absolved and then resume her sinful ways in short order. But she insisted on going to different churches on the grounds that a priest might remember her is she returned too soon. There are an awful lot of Catholic churches in Dallas. This is an absolutely true story; I swear it by my hope of eternal salvation. But I will continue to believe that it is just flat wrong for a priest to conceal knowledge of a capital crime. For that matter, I believe it is just flat wrong for anyone to conceal knowledge of a capital crime. I will also concede that I have no idea how often a capital crime is confessed to a priest. For all I know, it might happen only occasionally, if that often. And my opinion is prejudiced because I was raised as a Southern Baptist and we do not believe in intermediaries between us and our God. Therefore, to my way of thinking, there is no need whatsoever for a confessional. IMHO, YMMV, and so forth and so on. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/67 "2009-10-23T15:01:39Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > First, he obviously would not be repentant of his sin in doing so. He would also (a) lose his job as a priest – priests who break the seal of the confessional are, I believe, automatically excommunicated – and, having forsworn an oath, would not be able to hold a job requiring that anyone trust him thereafter, meaning he would have to become unskilled labor. It’s quite a step down from, “The body of Christ, the bread of heaven” to “Do you want fries with that?” And having lost his job he’d then be free to blow the whistle on all the confessers he really felt needed some whistle blowing on ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/68 "2009-10-23T15:46:14Z")
A real world example of this was the case of Robert Hanssen, an Opus-Dei Catholic who was a spy for the Russians. His actions cause the deaths of contacts in Russia and did huge damage to the U.S. military and intelligence efforts. He would confess his crimes many times and by his own testimony his priest suggested he give the money the KBG paid him to Mother Theresa. Even though Hanssen’s criminal actions were directly responsible for the executions of people in Russia the confessional system is immune from any responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/69 "2009-10-23T16:09:52Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > But I will continue to believe that it is just flat wrong for a priest to conceal knowledge of a capital crime. For that matter, I believe it is just flat wrong for anyone to conceal knowledge of a capital crime. > > I will also concede that I have no idea how often a capital crime is confessed to a priest. For all I know, it might happen only occasionally, if that often. And my opinion is prejudiced because I was raised as a Southern Baptist and we do not believe in intermediaries between us and our God. Therefore, to my way of thinking, there is no need whatsoever for a confessional. IMHO, YMMV, and so forth and so on. An excellent GQ response. Very informative and factual. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/70 "2009-10-23T16:26:14Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > A real world example of this was the case of Robert Hanssen, an Opus-Dei Catholic who was a spy for the Russians. His actions cause the deaths of contacts in Russia and did huge damage to the U.S. military and intelligence efforts. He would confess his crimes many times and by his own testimony his priest suggested he give the money the KBG paid him to Mother Theresa. Even though Hanssen’s criminal actions were directly responsible for the executions of people in Russia the confessional system is immune from any responsibility. It’s not clear to me that this is accurate. From the New York Times: > [@](#): > > Father Bucciarelli came up with a plan to save Mr Hanssen from prison… if he gave the money from the Soviets to charity, and not promise to spy again; he would have the priest’s blessing not to report the matter to the F.B.I. Mr Hanssen agreed, and his wife, pregnant with their fourth child, was relieved. But she said she was determined to hold her husband to the deal. > > She said her husband told her he had received about $30,000 from the Soviets…but he had spent much of it. Mrs Hanssen said she demanded that he repay the $30,000. He began to make small payments over several years to a charity affiliated with Mother Teresa’s Catholic organization, moving the family close to bankruptcy. > > She said she repeatedly questioned her husband to ensure that he was making the payments, and each time he insisted that he was. Over the next few years she questioned him about whether he was working with the Russians once more…he would deny it and act as if he was hurt that she did not trust him. > > In October 1985, he volunteered to spy for the K.G.B. the Soviet Intelligence agency, by sending an anonymous letter to a K.G.B. officer based in Washington. In it he betrayed three Soviet officers who were working for the C.I.A. and the bureau. All three were arrested; two were executed. Several items deserve discussion. First, there is no joint “confession.” Or to put it another way, while there certainly can be joint confession, there is no joint Confession. If the Hanssens jointly discussed this with the priest, then it may well have been counselling and guidance, but it’s not correct to blame any outcome on the secrecy of confession. The fact that they all talked about it together removed it from the secrecy requirements. The priest’s decision to not report it, then, has absolutely zero to do with the canon law or secular law requirements of the priest-penitent privilege. So on what basis do you inveigh against the practice using this example? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/71 "2009-10-23T16:37:05Z")
It was reported in the book SpyCatcher, that he did confess his crimes to his priest perhaps it was a different one than in your info. I am not saying the confessional system like lawyer/client and others in medical situations is good or bad just indicating in this case crimes were committed and people in Russia died because of them. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/72 "2009-10-23T17:14:03Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > It was reported in the book SpyCatcher, that he did confess his crimes to his priest perhaps it was a different one than in your info. I am not saying the confessional system like lawyer/client and others in medical situations > is good or bad just indicating in this case crimes were committed and people in Russia died because of them. Did he confess his crimes to his priest, or did he Confess his crimes to his priest? If I go up to Fr. O’Rourke and say, “hey Father, I just stole $1,000 from Joe - what should I do?” that is entirely different than going into a confessional booth and saying, “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I stole $1,000 from Joe.” ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/73 "2009-10-23T17:53:16Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > It was reported in the book SpyCatcher, that he did confess his crimes to his priest perhaps it was a different one than in your info. I am not saying the confessional system like lawyer/client and others in medical situations > is good or bad just indicating in this case crimes were committed and people in Russia died because of them. Eh? Is there another “SpyCatcher” I don’t know about ? [SpyCatcher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spycatcher)was the MI5 expose that was banned in the UK during the 1980s, Hanssen wasn’t caught until 2001. Or is this another thread ? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/74 "2009-10-23T17:56:21Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > It was reported in the book SpyCatcher, that he did confess his crimes to his priest perhaps it was a different one than in your info. I am not saying the confessional system like lawyer/client and others in medical situations > is good or bad just indicating in this case crimes were committed and people in Russia died because of them. No question that crimes were committed, and no quesiton that people died. The objection I have to the relevance of the story is that their deaths had absolutely nothing to do with the secrecy requirement imposed by canon law on a priest hearing a confession. Since this thread is titled **Do priests hearing confession have an obligation to report serious crimes?** , it’s not really clear what that story has to do with the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/75 "2009-10-23T18:01:11Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Did he confess his crimes to his priest, or did he Confess his crimes to his priest? If I go up to Fr. O’Rourke and say, “hey Father, I just stole $1,000 from Joe - what should I do?” that is entirely different than going into a confessional booth and saying, “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I stole $1,000 from Joe.” Hanssen (actually his wife) claims it was in confession (my reading of the story is that Hanssen then told his wife what the prest has said, not that they both talked to the priest together). Though of course we have no corroboration of that as for the priest in question to deny or confirm it, would be a breach of the confessional. Other preists have commented that it would have been theologically dubious for Father Bucciarelli not to have insisted he turn himself in to the authorities. As the sin in question was not just taking the money (e.g. if a hitman takes $20000 to kill someone, then confesses it. The priest shouldn’t just tell him to give the money to charity and it will all be ok.). Though purely theologically speaking is spying a sin ? Yes it resulted in deaths, but so does being a soldier. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/76 "2009-10-23T18:02:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And suppose they admitted to their lawyer that they had molested kids. What do you believe the lawyer should do? > > See, here’s the thing you’re missing: the priest (and the lawyer) serve a function that is considered valuable enough to society that society has by law, in all fifty states and the federal system, carved out absolute exceptions to the general rules that guide human beings here. Whe a priest hears a confession, he’s not acting as a person; when a lawyer hears an admission, he’s not acting as a person. They are serving valuable roles, roles that we as a society have validated as necessary. > > I’m quite certain priests have heard things that have made them feel sick. I KNOW lawyers have. But neither can simply abandon their role to serve their own personal sense of decency. If they do, they’re in the wrong damn job. I quite agree and have no problem with any of that. My point was that the lawyer’s privleged communication has exceptions, the priest’s does not. It’s this absolute privilege that concerns me. Both lawyer and priest do serve valuable roles but society extends the greater privilege to the priest. I don’t see how that can be justified. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/77 "2009-10-23T18:02:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The objection I have to the relevance of the story is that their deaths had absolutely nothing to do with the secrecy requirement imposed by canon law on a priest hearing a confession. There is nothing in that story that seems to imply it was not a confession. My reading of it is that Hanssen told his wife what the priest had told him (which would seem the natural thing to do). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/78 "2009-10-23T18:59:18Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > There is nothing in that story that seems to imply it was not a confession. My reading of it is that Hanssen told his wife what the priest had told him (which would seem the natural thing to do). _sigh_ No. From [“The Main Enemy,”](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345472500) page 126: > [@](#): > > Hanssen spied for the GRU until his wife discovered his es-pionage in 1980. When she walked in on him in the basement of their home in Scarsdale, New York, he suddenly began to cover up what he was doing. Afraid that he was having an af-fair, she began to grill him, and he finally told her no, there was no other woman–he was handing over information to the Soviet Union. He convinced her that he was tricking the Russians, giving them worthless information in exchange for cash. > > Bonnie Hanssen, a devout Catholic who was then pregnant with their fourth child, was stunned. She believed her husband when he said he was “tricking” the Russians, but she still understood that Bob was playing an extremely dangerous game. She told him she thought that what he was doing was “insane” and that it might get him fired from the FBI. > > Fearful for her family’s future, Bonnie convinced her hus-band to go with her to talk to their priest. Bob and Bonnie were members of a small conservative Catholic organization called Opus Dei and went to see their priest at Opus Dei’s center in Westchester County, Reverend Robert Bucciarelli. Father Bucciarelli initially told Hanssen that he had to turn himself in to the FBI. That night, Bonnie cried himself to sleep, fearful of what was to become of their family. But the next morning, the priest called the Hanssens back and asked them to come see him once again. This time he suggested a way out–if Bob would give the money he had received from the Soviets to charity and agree not to spy further, he didn’t need to surrender to the authorities. Relieved, the Hanssens went home. Bob promised Bonnie he wouldn’t deal with the Russians again and would send his Soviet money to Mother Teresa. It’s extremely difficult to read into that account the idea that Hanssen’s disclosure to the priest was solely in the context of the confessional. The priest clearly talks with both of them about the issue, which he could not have done if the matter were covered by the seal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/79 "2009-10-23T19:04:27Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I quite agree and have no problem with any of that. My point was that the lawyer’s privleged communication has exceptions, the priest’s does not. It’s this absolute privilege that concerns me. Both lawyer and priest do serve valuable roles but society extends the greater privilege to the priest. I don’t see how that can be justified. Well, I do, but that’s a discussion that cannot really take place in GQ, the home of factual questions and answers. From a factual standpoint, the privilege does exist and it is not coextensive with the privileges granted to attorney client or doctor-patient communications. Whether this is a justified decision for a society to make is not factual determination. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555/80 "2009-10-24T01:34:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An excellent GQ response. Very informative and factual. Sarcasm doesn’t become you even though I might have posted what I did in the wrong forum. I’d rather not dispute or disagree with you in this forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-priests-hearing-confession-have-an-obligation-to-report-serious-crimes/514555.md?page=5)