# Do private gun sellers have any liability if the purchaser uses the gun to commit a crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465 "2015-10-22T15:59:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/21 "2015-10-23T01:38:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but I think most people convicted of murder have criminal records which makes it extremely unlikely they’d be able to legally purchase handguns. > > I could be wrong though. You are right about most. But: [http://www.myajc.com/news/news/in-greater-numbers-georgia-killers-child-molesters/ng7KY/](http://www.myajc.com/news/news/in-greater-numbers-georgia-killers-child-molesters/ng7KY/) > [@](#): > > Cases like Bishop’s illustrate a significant shift by the parole board that has returned guns to people who committed violent acts such as murder, rape, aggravated assault and child molestation, an investigation by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has found. Perhaps the risk-reward ratio for a rehabilitated murderer owning a gun might be more favorable than for the average firearms owner. Another group, albeit quite elderly by now, consists of living individuals who murdered in the 1940’s or early 1950’s. Most of them would have been released before October 1968, when it was legal for American ex-cons to buy a gun. They could have bought a gun back then and still have it. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/22 "2015-10-23T14:37:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but I think most people convicted of murder have criminal records which makes it extremely unlikely they’d be able to legally purchase handguns. > > I could be wrong though. Right now, they would likely only be prevented if they purchased from an FFL holder. If I sold them a gun in an arms-length transaction, it would be illegal on their part, but not on mine, in Texas at least (as far as I know). ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/23 "2015-10-23T21:34:57Z")
Don’t have a link handy, but I saw in the paper recently that a gun store owner was successfully sued by the survivors of a murder committed with a gun he sold. IIRC it was the first such successful suit in American history. Somehow they were able to establish that the straw purchase was so blatantly obvious (among other things, when the “buyer” realized he didn’t have enough cash on him, he and his “friend” stepped outside, and he returned seconds later having miraculously found more cash) that the owner was negligent in making the sale. I imagine that it is pretty rare for a plaintiff to be able to meet that burden of proof, though. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/24 "2015-10-23T21:51:55Z")
[Badger Guns in Milwaukee.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-milwaukee-gun-shop-ruling-20151013-story.html) Apparently that particular seller has a history of selling guns to criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/25 "2015-10-23T21:55:33Z")
That’s the same case I recalled earlier; however most of these answers ignore that fact that the OP excludes knowing straw selling by affirming they _should_ face legal sanction. Which also means ‘illegally held’ guns aren’t the issue either. What he asked was should a seller of a gun bear legal responsibility for how it is used hereafter. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/26 "2015-10-23T21:58:25Z")
I am fairly okay with assigning liability to the gun seller under circumstances like Badger Guns’. It’s a pretty high bar to show that a seller should have known what a gun would be used for. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/27 "2015-10-24T04:30:54Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > The GQ part of this is: do people selling or otherwise transferring ownership of a firearm to another individual currently bare any civil or criminal liability if the weapon is used in a crime? > > I am pretty sure that there are laws against making straw purchases of firearms, but I don’t know how easy or how often those are enforced. I may be wrong. > > FFL holders are required to conduct an instant background check against purchases (plus any addition restrictions a given state imposes), but private individuals are not (the so-called gun show loophole, although most sellers at shows are FFL holders). > > The GD part of this, what, if any, liability should they face and under what conditions? I think we can all agree that straw buyers should face some sort of legal sanction if they don’t already. Should someone selling their gun through a classified ad face criminal or civil liability if the purchaser uses the gun in a crime? Should an FFL holder? Should someone who failed to lock up his guns be liable if the guns were stolen? > > Thanks, > Rob no (:- ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/28 "2015-10-24T04:41:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ,.,.,.,…,.,.,.,.,.,.It’s a pretty high bar to show that a\* seller\* should have known what a gun would be used for. > > The first time I read the above post I misinterpreted the term “seller” with settler. > > It’s a pretty high bar to show that a seller should have known what a gun would be used for. When I first read the above I thought it said “settler”. My bad ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/29 "2015-10-26T14:57:33Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > I think the percentage purchased from FFL holders is small, but the percentage purchased from non-FFL holders is probably high, if not the majority of transfers. > > FFL holders are doing some sort of due diligence when calling into the instant background check system (forgot the acronym). > > Sellers without one are not, and as far as I know, can’t even if they want to. > > Rob After Sandy Hook, Senator Coburn offered a compromise that would’ve allowed (even required in most cases) private sellers to verify that the buyer passed a background check. Democrats rejected his proposal, largely because it didn’t give them the registration they crave ([cite](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/04/27/do-it-yourself-background-checks/2088479/)). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/30 "2015-10-26T15:02:04Z")
They rejected his proposal because there is no incentive to actually perform the check and no record of the sale. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/31 "2015-10-26T15:38:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They rejected his proposal because there is no incentive to actually perform the check and no record of the sale. How would that be different than the scenario we have right now? There would be some non-zero amount of people subject to background checks that weren’t before. I’d say that’s a net positive. I would have an incentive to use it were I to sell a firearm I own because I have no desire to sell to a prohibited person. I would conjecture that most gun owners would not want to sell to prohibited persons either. And since it’s already a crime to sell to a prohibited person knowingly, this would have given people an avenue to verify the status of buyers. It is why gun rights advocates are so skeptical of universal background checks. We could have them today - but it seems like registration is the real goal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/32 "2015-10-26T15:40:31Z")
The goal is accountability. Recording a sale is not “registration.” It shows that a gun passed through your hands at some point, of course, as well as those of the buyer, but it says nothing about where it is now. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/33 "2015-10-26T15:47:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The goal is accountability. Recording a sale is not “registration.” It shows that a gun passed through your hands at some point, of course, as well as those of the buyer, but it says nothing about where it is now. If every (legal) sale gets recorded, then it amounts to registration. Gun grabbers would have a database of firearms and who owns them. That seems to be their goal. They reject any background check system that doesn’t allow them to assemble this database. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/34 "2015-10-26T15:55:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The goal is accountability. Recording a sale is not “registration.” It shows that a gun passed through your hands at some point, of course, as well as those of the buyer, but it says nothing about where it is now. This seems like a bit of unsubtle sophistry. Can you explain how recording all sales and showing who purchased all firearms is different than a registry? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/35 "2015-10-26T15:59:22Z")
The seller records the sale, not The Government. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/36 "2015-10-26T16:35:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The seller records the sale, not The Government. If that’s what the Democrats were asking for, you might have a point, but they don’t want the sellers recording them. They want FFLs recording them, which amounts to registration. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/37 "2015-10-26T16:37:22Z")
What FFLs were involved in the Coburn proposal? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/38 "2015-10-26T16:42:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What FFLs were involved in the Coburn proposal? None, which is why the Democrats rejected it. Coburn is a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/39 "2015-10-26T16:43:22Z")
Okay, so where in your linked story does it say that the Democrats rejected the proposal because FFLs would not be recording the transactions? ETA: I think we both know that Coburn was offering an illusory compromise. Once the legislation passed, the pro-gun side would refuse to fund the private background check database. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465/40 "2015-10-26T16:53:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so where in your linked story does it say that the Democrats rejected the proposal because FFLs would not be recording the transactions? > > ETA: I think we both know that Coburn was offering an illusory compromise. Once the legislation passed, the pro-gun side would refuse to fund the private background check database. Well, the story did say: > [@](#): > > **Another problem for gun control advocates: There would be no lasting record of the sale.** > > “When there’s a crime committed, a police agency can go to a manufacturer and ask, ‘Hey, where did this gun go?’” said Mark Kelly, who founded Americans for Responsible Solutions with his wife, former Rep. Gabby Giffords. **The manufacturer can point to a federally licensed dealer, who would have a paper record of the sale** , “and then they can help them solve some crimes,” Kelly said. If that doesn’t answer your question, I don’t know what does. Here’s [another article on the same subject](http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/06/17213403-gun-control-efforts-hit-senate-snag?lite) > [@](#): > > … > Senate Democrats negotiating a bill to require all gun buyers to get a background check have abandoned discussions with GOP Sen. Tom Coburn, leaving the legislation – at least for now – without backing from a pro-gun Republican. > … > Coburn, who carries an “A” rating from the National Rifle Association, has been negotiating with Democratic Sens. Charles Schumer and Joe Manchin on **a bill that would require all gun buyers to get a background check**. Under current law, Americans only have to get a background check if they’re buying a gun from a licensed dealer. > > A Schumer aide on Wednesday said that lines of communication with Coburn are still open – **but that the senators can’t agree on whether private gun sellers should be required to keep records of gun sales**. > … The Democrats didn’t really want universal background checks. They want registration. They get irked when someone suggests a solution that doesn’t allow them to make lists of firearms and their owners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-private-gun-sellers-have-any-liability-if-the-purchaser-uses-the-gun-to-commit-a-crime/735465.md?page=3)