# Do privately owned firearms make communities safer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221 "2007-05-31T18:44:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/21 "2007-05-31T20:08:03Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] Arguably the UK and Australia have (cites are to partisan articles but the statistics seem legit). [http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol\_20010302.html](http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html) [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=15304](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304) [/QUOTE] From [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime\_in\_the\_United\_States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States) > [@](#): > > Overall the total crime rate of the United States is similar to that of other highly developed countries. Reported property crime in the US is actually lower than in Germany or Canada, yet the American homicide rate in the United States is substantially higher. Interestingly enough, the overall violent crime rate in the United States was roughly half that of Canada, despite its homicide rate being 189.5% higher; note from the references, however, that the US violent crime rate includes only Aggravated Assault, whereas the Canadian violent crime rate includes all categories of assault, including the much-more-numerous Simple Assault (i.e., assault not using a weapon and not resulting in serious bodily harm). The article goes on to point out that countries define violent crime for statistical purposes differently, and that “homicide” is the only category which is measured pretty much consistently between countries. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/22 "2007-05-31T20:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Sure, that’s the literal meaning of the title, but the body of the original post suggested that guns are unsafe, leading me to believe that was the intent of the post. [/QUOTE] Of course guns are unsafe in some ways - they are designed to kill people. The question is whether their ownership by Joe Public makes society safer or less safer than their ownership only in the hands of, let us say, government employees of various types, as well as those willing to violate whatever restrictive laws may exist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/23 "2007-05-31T20:16:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Can anyone find an example of a country that has powerful gun control laws, but high violent crime rates? I think that would be the best way to disprove a correlation between gun control and safety. [/QUOTE] The issue being debated here is not gun **laws** but gun **ownership.** Mexico has tough gun-control laws, but its endemically corrupt and incompetent goverment apparently can’t enforce them; Japan and the UK have such laws and can enforce them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/24 "2007-05-31T20:23:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The issue being debated here is not gun **laws** but gun **ownership.** Mexico has tough gun-control laws, but its endemically corrupt and incompetent goverment apparently can’t enforce them; Japan and the UK have such laws and can enforce them. [/QUOTE] And Switzerland? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/25 "2007-05-31T20:29:16Z")
Has anyone mentioned that Mexico seems to have both strict gun laws \*and \*a high rate of violent crime? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/26 "2007-05-31T20:34:06Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The issue being debated here is not gun **laws** but gun **ownership.** Mexico has tough gun-control laws, but its endemically corrupt and incompetent goverment apparently can’t enforce them; Japan and the UK have such laws and can enforce them. [/QUOTE] And one other thing… can you back up your claim that gun ownership in Mexico is comparable to the US? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/27 "2007-05-31T20:49:52Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Viva Mexico! > **[Firearms regulation in Mexico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico)** > > Firearms regulation in Mexico is governed by legislation which sets the legality by which members of the armed forces, law enforcement and private citizens may acquire, own, possess and carry firearms; covering rights and limitations to individuals—including hunting and shooting sport participants, property and personal protection personnel such as bodyguards, security officers, private security, and extending to VIPs (diplomats, public officials, celebrities). Mexico has restrictive laws regardi... > **[Crime in Mexico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico)** > > Crime in Mexico is one of the most urgent concerns in the country, as Mexican drug trafficking rings play a major role in the flow of cocaine, methamphetamine, fentanyl, heroin, and marijuana transiting between Latin America and the United States. Drug trafficking has led to corruption, which has had a deleterious effect on Mexico's Federal Representative Republic. Drug trafficking and organized crime have been a major source of violent crime. Drug cartels and gangs have also branched out to co... You have much more violent crime, and a similar rate of firearm murders, as well as much more draconian firearm laws, especially with regard to handguns. [/QUOTE] The comparison is to countries with fewer guns, not to countries with gun laws that aren’t enforced. If Mexico had a 15 mph speed limit, that wouldn’t mean that driving slow was dangerous, if the limit was ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/28 "2007-05-31T20:52:13Z")
Let’s derail this “safer” weaseling right now: the assumption I’m making is that if we consider an incident in which a would-be murder victim defends himself by killing his three attackers with his legal handgun, we may say that society is safer as a result. If anyone wishes to dispute this by pointing out that three deaths are “less safe” for society than one death, and that speaking strictly from a position of safety, the conclusion of my hypothetical has made society “less safe”… I have no inclination to debate on those terms with you. “Making society safer” has some inherent assumptions. If you’re not on-board with the idea that it refers to keeping law-abiding citizens safe, and is unconcerned with the fate of criminals, then we’ll be talking at cross-purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/29 "2007-05-31T21:00:37Z")
What about publically-owned firearms? Would we finally be safe then?? WOULD WE??!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/30 "2007-05-31T21:21:07Z")
[QUOTE=LinusK] The comparison is to countries with fewer guns, not to countries with gun laws that aren’t enforced. If Mexico had a 15 mph speed limit, that wouldn’t mean that driving slow was dangerous, if the limit was ignored. [/QUOTE] The goalposts are moving. The original question was: > [@](#): > > Can anyone find an example of a country that has powerful gun control laws, but high violent crime rates? I think that would be the best way to disprove a correlation between gun control and safety. I and others cited Mexico (strict gun control, not necessarily well enforced) and UK and Australia (strict gun control, enforced effectively) as countries that meet the criteria cited. The UK today has far fewer guns in circulation than it did 15 years ago. How are things going on the violent crime front? Not so swimmingly. > **[BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Reid steps up knife crime fight](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6466189.stm)** > > The home secretary reveals steps to improve the recording of knife crime after a series of a fatal stabbings. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/31 "2007-05-31T21:28:53Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And one other thing… can you back up your claim that gun ownership in Mexico is comparable to the US? [/QUOTE] I said only that its gun-control laws “apparently” can’t be enforced. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership) list of countries by gun ownership does not even include Mexico, and [this](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html) page gives the percentage of households with guns there as “n/a.” But the latter does give Mexico’s firearm-homicide rate as 9.88 per 100,000 persons (compared to 3.72 in the U.S.) – how would that be possible if there were not a lot of guns in private hands? (Which does not, of cource, tell us whether that figure is “comparable to the U.S.” or not.) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/32 "2007-05-31T21:31:33Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Has anyone mentioned that Mexico seems to have both strict gun laws \*and \*a high rate of violent crime? Just wondering. [/QUOTE] We had a higher rate of violent crime. Once. In 2001. For 20 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/33 "2007-05-31T21:32:46Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And Switzerland? [/QUOTE] I think rifles kept in the house for compulsory [militia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army) service are outside the scope of this debate. Concealable handguns are much more likely to be used in crimes. (See post #2.) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/34 "2007-05-31T21:35:33Z")
I think gun-control laws might cut down _a bit_ on individual violence, but it’s so iffy I’m not sure if anything can be shown one way or the other. OTOH, I think gun-control laws **vastly** increase the amount of organized violence. How much violence in Mexico, and in large American gun-control cities, is due to gangs? Once you filter out the amount of violence the rest of America also has, I’d say the vast majority. If you know your victims cannot fight back, or you can use laws to ensure they don’t have the arms to fight back, you’re free to form your own “militia” or “our thing” to run the place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/35 "2007-05-31T21:37:49Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Let’s derail this “safer” weaseling right now: the assumption I’m making is that if we consider an incident in which a would-be murder victim defends himself by killing his three attackers with his legal handgun, we may say that society is safer as a result. [/quote] Perhaps, but I very much doubt the number of criminals killed by their intended victims is statistically significant, in **any** country, compared to the reverse; it makes no real difference whether those deaths are included in a country’s “firearm homicide” rate or not. Furthermore, a lot of firearm deaths, especially in inner-city neighborhoods, result from cases where you can’t clearly distinguish “perpetrator” from “victim,” except by defining “victim” as the one who dies. I hope you don’t require a cite for **that,** it’s fairly common knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/36 "2007-05-31T22:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Perhaps, but I very much doubt the number of criminals killed by their intended victims is statistically significant, in **any** country, compared to the reverse; it makes no real difference whether those deaths are included in a country’s “firearm homicide” rate or not. Furthermore, a lot of firearm deaths, especially in inner-city neighborhoods, result from cases where you can’t clearly distinguish “perpetrator” from “victim,” except by defining “victim” as the one who dies. I hope you don’t require a cite for **that,** it’s fairly common knowledge. [/QUOTE] If by “a lot” you mean “a statistically significant percentage,” then yeah, you’ll need to back up that “common knowledge” with a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/37 "2007-05-31T22:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Furthermore, a lot of firearm deaths, especially in inner-city neighborhoods, result from cases where you can’t clearly distinguish “perpetrator” from “victim,” except by defining “victim” as the one who dies. I hope you don’t require a cite for **that,** it’s fairly common knowledge. [/QUOTE] I would not require a cite for that, myself, if what you’re asserting is that a good portion of the violence is gang-on-gang. I would add, though, that a lot of gangs started as a means of self-defence where the police were unable or unwilling. One of the ways in which gangs are criminalized is in their possession of guns. If guns are legal, neighborhood civilians who arms themselves and coordinate for self-protection are “posses”. When they are illegal, they are “gangs”. I’m not saying any armed gangs do not engage in criminally violent behavior. But just because someone’s killed by gunfire and happens to have a gun on them in a place where they shouldn’t, doesn’t mean they have a criminal mindset. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/38 "2007-05-31T22:36:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I think rifles kept in the house for compulsory [militia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army) service are outside the scope of this debate. [/quote] As I noted. But that still leaves a lot of guns in CH. > [@](#): > > Concealable handguns are much more likely to be used in crimes. (See post #2.) Only because they are legal. If handguns were banned in the US, don’t you think criminals would use other firearms if they were unable to get handguns? Of course they would. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/39 "2007-05-31T22:41:25Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Only because they are legal. [/QUOTE] No. It’s because they’re the most effective and efficient tool to use to commit a crime, AND they’re legal. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/40 "2007-05-31T22:44:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The issue being debated here is not gun **laws** but gun **ownership.** Mexico has tough gun-control laws, but its endemically corrupt and incompetent goverment apparently can’t enforce them; Japan and the UK have such laws and can enforce them. [/QUOTE] Fine. Your own cite shows Norway has the same number of guns per capita as the US, and a murder rate a quarter of the US. Finland has about 2/3rds the gun ownership and the murder rate is about half. So, there we are. Despite the clear text of the OP, despite the goal posts being moved, the field goal has been scored. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221.md?page=3)