# Do privately owned firearms make communities safer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221 "2007-05-31T18:44:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/41 "2007-05-31T23:07:40Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I think rifles kept in the house for compulsory [militia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army) service are outside the scope of this debate. [/QUOTE] Your objection betrays your prejudice. As posed, the question under debate is if private firearm ownership makes us safer. Presumably, then, the question should be “What sort of guns are useful for defending the life and property of a law abiding citizen?” and not “What sort of guns do criminals like to use?” Not to mention that your very reasonable evaluation of the likelyhood that a criminal will use such a weapon is NOT shared by many on your side of the gun control debate. It is exactly these types of firearms (under the label of “assault weapons”) which are the subject of bans, (successful, and attempted; expired, and current) presumably because the advocates of such bans see them as a menace to society. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/42 "2007-05-31T23:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] This is a benefit to society, one that innures to law-abiding citizens and against those committing crimes. [/QUOTE] **Polerius’s law:** In any discussion on gun control, the probability of someone saying “law-abiding citizens” is equal to 1. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/43 "2007-05-31T23:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] **Polerius’s law:** In any discussion on gun control, the probability of someone saying “law-abiding citizens” is equal to 1. [/QUOTE] Guess who took guns away from law-abiding citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/44 "2007-06-01T00:08:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Guess who took guns away from law-abiding citizens? [/QUOTE] Mexico! ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/45 "2007-06-01T00:57:06Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Viva Mexico! > **[Firearms regulation in Mexico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico)** > > Firearms regulation in Mexico is governed by legislation which sets the legality by which members of the armed forces, law enforcement and private citizens may acquire, own, possess and carry firearms; covering rights and limitations to individuals—including hunting and shooting sport participants, property and personal protection personnel such as bodyguards, security officers, private security, and extending to VIPs (diplomats, public officials, celebrities). Mexico has restrictive laws regardi... > **[Crime in Mexico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico)** > > Crime in Mexico is one of the most urgent concerns in the country, as Mexican drug trafficking rings play a major role in the flow of cocaine, methamphetamine, fentanyl, heroin, and marijuana transiting between Latin America and the United States. Drug trafficking has led to corruption, which has had a deleterious effect on Mexico's Federal Representative Republic. Drug trafficking and organized crime have been a major source of violent crime. Drug cartels and gangs have also branched out to co... You have much more violent crime, and a similar rate of firearm murders, as well as much more draconian firearm laws, especially with regard to handguns. [/QUOTE] Yes legally owned guns are more highly restricted but when you live next door to the most heavily armed nation on the planet, illegal guns are in abundance. Everybody has guns here. Some are legal but many, many otherwise law-abiding citizens have unregistered or illegal guns in their homes. Doesn’t seem to have much of a deterring effect on crime. The bad guys are much more heavily armed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/46 "2007-06-01T02:52:44Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Only because they are legal. If handguns were banned in the US, don’t you think criminals would use other firearms if they were unable to get handguns? Of course they would. [/QUOTE] And it would be that much harder for them to get away with anything. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/47 "2007-06-01T02:54:23Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] If by “a lot” you mean “a statistically significant percentage,” then yeah, you’ll need to back up that “common knowledge” with a cite. [/QUOTE] I’m sure gang wars cause a lot of deaths, but I have no idea whether it is statistically significant compared to the total of firearm homicides. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/48 "2007-06-01T03:00:48Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Guess who took guns away from law-abiding citizens? [/QUOTE] If you’re Godwinizing, bear in mind that an age of tanks and fighter helicopters, which only governments can usually afford, small arms ownership rarely helps a country’s people resist tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/49 "2007-06-01T05:32:19Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] If you’re Godwinizing, bear in mind that an age of tanks and fighter helicopters, which only governments can usually afford, small arms ownership rarely helps a country’s people resist tyranny. [/QUOTE] I agree. One need look no further than Waco to see that having a ton of weapons is no match for what the government has. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/50 "2007-06-01T06:22:57Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] Easy. Mexico. > **[Firearms regulation in Mexico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico)** > > Firearms regulation in Mexico is governed by legislation which sets the legality by which members of the armed forces, law enforcement and private citizens may acquire, own, possess and carry firearms; covering rights and limitations to individuals—including hunting and shooting sport participants, property and personal protection personnel such as bodyguards, security officers, private security, and extending to VIPs (diplomats, public officials, celebrities). Mexico has restrictive laws regardi... On the other side of the ledger, Finland, Switzerland, Israel – lots of guns, little violent crime. [/QUOTE] Israeli gun control laws are actually fairly draconian - far more than in the U.S. Generally speaking, the only people who own guns are people who _need_ guns. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/51 "2007-06-01T08:54:23Z")
[QUOTE=Huerta88] The UK today has far fewer guns in circulation than it did 15 years ago. How are things going on the violent crime front? Not so swimmingly. > **[BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Reid steps up knife crime fight](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6466189.stm)** > > The home secretary reveals steps to improve the recording of knife crime after a series of a fatal stabbings. [/QUOTE] But as has been said _ad nauseam_, prior to the recent changes in legislation concerning handgun ownership, the role of privately-owned handguns in crime prevention was virtually nil. Of course I know that you were not arguing that correlation implies causation, but the peanut gallery needs to be kept informed. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/52 "2007-06-01T13:12:23Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] If you’re Godwinizing, bear in mind that an age of tanks and fighter helicopters, which only governments can usually afford, small arms ownership rarely helps a country’s people resist tyranny. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I agree. Asymmetric warfare is the modern paradigm, right? The IRA, and many other guerrilla groups that have had some moderate success, have done so with little more than some AKs/Armalites and a bit of Semtex. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/53 "2007-06-01T13:20:45Z")
I regard the discussion above as proving my point: the question is not settled. There is evidence that a fair-minded person could use on each side to advocate for his view. But the only thing here that is utterly wrong is to present one side as definitively proven, with no debate existing. Would you agree with this, **BrainGlutton**? Or do you still regard the opposing view as not only wrong – which you’re certainly entitled to do – but utterly without merit, such that acknowledging a reasonable dispute exists is unnecessary? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/54 "2007-06-01T14:03:52Z")
Great thread and surprisingly civil. Thanks for starting it **BrainGlutton**. I thinker \*\*Bricker \*\* is correct, that your absolute statement from the Thompson thread is not holding up very well. I say this as someone in favor of gun control and registration. As far as small arms being effective against modern militaries… Aren’t we in a stalemate with a bunch of separate factions in Iraq that are relying on small arms and homemade incendiaries and explosives? Jim ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/55 "2007-06-01T14:48:23Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] But as has been said _ad nauseam_, prior to the recent changes in legislation concerning handgun ownership, the role of privately-owned handguns in crime prevention was virtually nil. Of course I know that you were not arguing that correlation implies causation, but the peanut gallery needs to be kept informed. [/QUOTE] Correct. I was actually not even responding to the “did the presence of guns deter crime” premise of the OP but to the sidetrack implication from upthread that the absence of guns was necessarily causative of non-violence. Either way you are correct to point out the post hoc ergo propter hoc point. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/56 "2007-06-01T17:31:30Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] As far as small arms being effective against modern militaries… Aren’t we in a stalemate with a bunch of separate factions in Iraq that are relying on small arms and homemade incendiaries and explosives? [/QUOTE] Two points: (1) Those people are gaining access to those small arms even though I’m pretty sure they are doing so outside the bounds of the law. To put it another way, laws allowing people to own small arms is not necessary, if your purpose is to ‘fight the government’. 2) The problems the insurgents are causing are, from a military standpoint, not significant. They cause an image problem and dissatisfaction back home, but that’s it. If the US government ever became tyranical in the US, it wouldn’t care, miltarily, about a few bombs and/or snipers killing some of its soldiers. So, in that case the US insurgents wouldn’t be able to do much, militarily, with their small arms against a US tyranical government. And this is discounting the possibility of the government becoming extremely brutal, a la Saddam, in which case it could squash the US insurgency much more effectively. Basically, if you assume that small arms and explosives will help against a possible tyranical US government, you have to assume that it will not be brutal and that it will care about its image. It is quite likely that these things will not hold. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/57 "2007-06-01T18:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I regard the discussion above as proving my point: the question is not settled. There is evidence that a fair-minded person could use on each side to advocate for his view. But the only thing here that is utterly wrong is to present one side as definitively proven, with no debate existing. Would you agree with this, **BrainGlutton**? Or do you still regard the opposing view as not only wrong – which you’re certainly entitled to do – but utterly without merit, such that acknowledging a reasonable dispute exists is unnecessary? [/QUOTE] This argument pops up a lot when one side of a discussion is overwhelmed by logical reasoning and statistical evidence. “These are all just opinions. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, right? Right?!” No, I don’t agree with you. There is no reasonable debate for saying private gun ownership makes communities more safe. If you want to argue that private gun ownership ought to be kept around for other reasons, such as “the government shouldn’t be able to tell us what dangerous things we’re allowed to own” or “an armed citizenship is essential to preserve the subservience of the government to the people” or “guns are useful outside of committing crimes or preventing them” then you might have a real debate brewing. Arguing on the basis of the community safety guns provide is just silly, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/58 "2007-06-01T19:04:48Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] Two points: (1) Those people are gaining access to those small arms even though I’m pretty sure they are doing so outside the bounds of the law. To put it another way, laws allowing people to own small arms is not necessary, if your purpose is to ‘fight the government’. [/QUOTE] You can be sure that the guns being used by Iraqi insurgents were at one point (from manufacture to insurgent possession) either manufactured or sold legally. The fact that one transaction in the history of a gun was illegal doesn’t negate the dozens of other points at which insurgent (or just plain old domestic criminal) possession of that firearm would have been prevented by the law. Would a dude really shoot his wife if he had to find someone to illegally manufacture a gun, someone else to illegally smuggle it to him, someone else to illegally sell it, and someone else that would be willing to illegally launder the money they got from the transaction? Of course he would have been stopped at “illegally manufacture”. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/59 "2007-06-01T19:04:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] This argument pops up a lot when one side of a discussion is overwhelmed by logical reasoning and statistical evidence. “These are all just opinions. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, right? Right?!” No, I don’t agree with you. There is no reasonable debate for saying private gun ownership makes communities more safe. [/QUOTE] But you haven’t provided a single piece of evidence that your argument is correct. You tried to compare places with high gun ownership and places with low gun ownership. That doesn’t prove anything. “Safety” is a result of multiple factors, and not least gun ownership might be high because people feel unsafe because of those other factors. If you can demonstrate that in a given society, as gun ownership increases, safety decreases, _ceteris paribus_, you might be making a valuable contribution. But you haven’t done that. Simply claiming there is no reasonable debate doesn’t make you right. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221/60 "2007-06-01T19:18:44Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] This argument pops up a lot when one side of a discussion is overwhelmed by logical reasoning and statistical evidence. “These are all just opinions. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, right? Right?!” No, I don’t agree with you. There is no reasonable debate for saying private gun ownership makes communities more safe. If you want to argue that private gun ownership ought to be kept around for other reasons, such as “the government shouldn’t be able to tell us what dangerous things we’re allowed to own” or “an armed citizenship is essential to preserve the subservience of the government to the people” or “guns are useful outside of committing crimes or preventing them” then you might have a real debate brewing. Arguing on the basis of the community safety guns provide is just silly, though. [/QUOTE] You may disagree with John Lott, but he brings statistics, he’s certainly well-credentialed, and I don’t think I’d call his thesis silly without having some counter-cites. [http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html](http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-privately-owned-firearms-make-communities-safer/406221.md?page=4)