# Do racehorses appreciate that they are racing (against other horses)? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** horse-sports\ **Created:** [May 9, 2022, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178 "2022-05-09T13:23:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/1 "2022-05-09T13:23:41Z")
Racehorses clearly understand that the idea is for them to run fast, and they also can see that there are other horses alongside them which are doing the same thing. But do they understand that there is any significance is what their position is vis a vis the other horses? Or do they think it’s just them and a bunch of other horses running along? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/2 "2022-05-09T13:39:17Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > But do they understand that there is any significance is what their position is vis a vis the other horses? Some may, some may not. > **[Do horses even know that they're racing?](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/do-horses-even-know-that-theyre-racing)** > > There’s press conferences for days that explain what the jockey, the owner, the trainer and the guy who last saw American Pharoah before he became a star racehorse are thinking when the lates… > **[An Expert Answers: Do Racehorses Understand Winning And Losing? - Horse...](https://paulickreport.com/horse-care-category/an-expert-answers-do-racehorses-understand-winning-and-losing/)** > > Applying what science knows about animal cognition, is it possible to determine if a racehorse know if he wins or loses? Dr. Sue McDonnell, a certified applied animal behaviorist at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Veterinary... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/3 "2022-05-09T15:02:09Z")
Some race horses clearly strive to get ahead in a race. There are reasonable explanations for why without assuming they understand winning or losing a race. For one thing, they may have no idea horse races are a short term event with a finish line to strive for. And we don’t know how well any horse will do on any day without a jockey riding him. It seems clear horses like to lead when they run but it’s not clear how much further meaning can be derived from that. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/4 "2022-05-09T15:54:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It seems clear horses like to lead when they run but it’s not clear how much further meaning can be derived from that. Some do, some like to be in the middle of the herd. From what I can tell, horses have personalities that can differ considerably. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/5 "2022-05-09T15:59:33Z")
Dick Francis, long-time jockey and later a successful novelist, said that horses have an instinct to race each other, and that some seemed genuinely depressed when they lost. For what that’s worth… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/6 "2022-05-09T16:12:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Some do, some like to be in the middle of the herd. From what I can tell, horses have personalities that can differ considerably. I meant to say “some horses” there, it’s obvious not all do. And yes, horses have their individual personalities, on any given day it’s not certain how a horse will behave, some horses always want to lead, some need to be in the mood. If you have a dog or a cat or a teenager you might recognize some common personality traits that horses have with them. I think horses have varying opinions of humans too, I spent most of my time with horses when I was a kid but I still remember how horses would size up strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/7 "2022-05-09T16:41:36Z")
I think it comes down to their genes; do horses have an instinct to run ahead of the herd? I feel the answer to this would come from studying wild herds of horses and see if some of them try to outrace the rest of the herd. They may; this is the kind of display that’s often associating with mating behavior. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/8 "2022-05-09T16:51:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Dick Francis, long-time jockey and later a successful novelist, said that horses have an instinct to race each other, and that some seemed genuinely depressed when they lost. > > For what that’s worth… And in one of his novels, someone asked the jockey the same question as in the OP, and the jockey replied that some some horses know they are racing, some don’t, and the better horses usually know they are racing and like to win. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/9 "2022-05-09T21:03:10Z")
Don’t top racehorses get better times when they’re racing than when they’re running alone? That would seem to suggest that they know they’re competing against other horses. While some horses undoubtedly do like being in the middle of the pack, I expect that they mostly don’t end up as racehorses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/10 "2022-05-10T16:56:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Don’t top racehorses get better times when they’re racing than when they’re running alone? That would seem to suggest that they know they’re competing against other horses. That could be adrenaline from fear, perhaps – in practice, there’s not a ton of noise and chaos around them, but in a real race there’s all kinds of crazy noise and activity around them that may ramp up the fear and adrenaline. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/11 "2022-05-10T18:24:20Z")
Some will only put out the effort when they’re racing, like [Exterminator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exterminator_(horse)), who had basically zero temper, could be ridden bareback by children and looked half asleep most of the time. He did poorly at solo workouts and only turned in good times when running against another horse. When he got to the track he’d stand quiet in the gate, still looking half asleep, until the gate opened, when he’d take off and kick everyone’s ass. I bet they were kicking themselves for having him gelded before he won the Derby at 30-1. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/12 "2022-05-13T17:17:56Z")
Secretariat took such huge leads in the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes that he couldn’t have cared about the pack of horses so far behind him. He still may have understood he was in a race and charged ahead as fast as he could, but he wasn’t being driven by the other horses close at his heels. I’ve heard trainers say that their horses ran faster times back on the farm, perhaps for those horses there was no place like home sweet home, or it’s maybe it’s just puffery from the trainers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/13 "2022-06-02T18:51:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’ve heard trainers say that their horses ran faster times back on the farm, perhaps for those horses there was no place like home sweet home, or it’s maybe it’s just puffery from the trainers. I could just be statistics. Most of the times a horse is running will be in its own home field. Even a race horse probably only does one percent of its runs at a track. So even if a race horse runs faster than average at the track, its fastest runs are likelier to be in its home field. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/14 "2022-06-02T19:20:22Z")
That’s a practical way to look at it. A horse will probably run it’s fastest time on the best of days, right in his familiar territory, with no noisy distractions. Real races are unlikely to represent ideal conditions. Real races may have the advantage of better competition. Horses don’t just run alone on the farm but they usually aren’t up against top competition, so it’s possible a horse will run his best time in a real race and with a higher level of competition. But then the trainers might just be saying “I didn’t know he could run that fast!” > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I could just be statistics. A fascinating concept. Isn’t there some rule about having corporeal form here on the Dope? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/15 "2022-06-02T19:25:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I could just be statistics. > > A fascinating concept. You have to admit it’s statistically possible. And I would know. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/16 "2022-06-10T22:42:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Isn’t there some rule about having corporeal form here on the Dope? Nah. I figure all “posters” are just random collections of electrons presented for my amusement. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/17 "2022-06-11T00:50:24Z")
Excuse me! I may be nothing but a collection of electrons but they are certainly not random! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/18 "2022-06-11T12:44:14Z")
Surely, you’re at least a few protons and neutrons as well? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/19 "2022-06-11T13:55:24Z")
I don’t know much about horses, or their behavior in the wild (such as it is now). Do they tend to have an “alpha,” like dogs do? Do they a status hierarchy, where the dominant horse in a pack will tend to be the stud, and most successful at attracting females? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178/20 "2022-06-11T14:02:38Z")
I don’t know any more about horses than I see on nature documentaries! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-racehorses-appreciate-that-they-are-racing-against-other-horses/964178.md?page=2)