# Do regular people today enjoy a better life than the great rulers of the past? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2006, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822 "2006-09-15T12:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/101 "2006-09-25T11:13:19Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Considering that a Sultan could kill any or all of them at will, I expect they did what they were told. I recall reading about one who decided he wanted a new harem, so he had his entire 100+ old harem tossed in a lake to drown. [/QUOTE] I believe you’re referring to an incident that took place when Sultan Ibrahim I of Turkey suspected that one of his harem girls had taken a secret lover. He had all 280 harem women tied up in weighted sacks and thrown into the Bosphorus, where they all drowned but for one, who was rescued by some French sailors. As an aside, when I toured the Dolmabahçe Palace in Istanbul, as we’re being escorted from room to room, each filled with more and more stupendous furnishings, we were shown the sultan’s bedroom. I was pretty curious to see what the bed the sultans did all their sexing in looked like. After the spectacular furniture in the rest of the palace, I was thinking to myself, _this bed had better be the side of frickin’ Montana_! Then I saw it, and it’s a… pretty normal looking bed. Comfy-looking, but not extravagant. Talk about a WTF? moment. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/102 "2006-09-25T15:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] And to those of you that say that because rulers didn’t know anything else they did not wish for privacy are missing a point: just because you haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean that you cannot want it (see: men, threesome 😉 ). I cannot believe that at least some of those kings and queens were not the shy, private type, who have wished for, what Queen Victoria called, “some fucking peace and quiet”\*. They just couldn’t have it, just as I can’t be tele-transported to Europe instead of having to fly 10 hrs to get there. \*She didn’t say that, but she would if she had lived in modern times. [/QUOTE] People accept as “normal” what they see around them every day. An Amazonian woman doesn’t feel embarassed to walk around with her boobies swinging free in front of God and everybody because everyone around her does the same. An Amazonian woman who suddenly started covering her breasts out of a desire for privacy would probably be thought of as very odd. Likewise, if I suddenly took to wearing a burkha whenever I leave the house, people would wonder why. Think of this, as well. I’d imagine most Islamic women know that Western women go around without their faces being covered but I’m sure that few of them wish to do the same. Why? For the same reason why I don’t want to walk around with my breasts exposed. I’ve been taught by my culture that those parts should be covered and I’d be very embarassed. “Embarassment” is culturally created. We learn shame just like we learn to talk and walk. If I’ve shared an outhouse all of my life or have had a groom of the stool to wipe my bum, I’m not going to suddenly develop an embarassment of it and desire privacy even if I’ve heard of other cultures who have different practices. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/103 "2006-09-25T16:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Think of this, as well. I’d imagine most Islamic women know that Western women go around without their faces being covered but I’m sure that few of them wish to do the same. Why? For the same reason why I don’t want to walk around with my breasts exposed. I’ve been taught by my culture that those parts should be covered and I’d be very embarassed. [/QUOTE] Wait a minute. Good point, bad example. Most of the women alive in the Middle East today were around before veiling became mandatory. They are educated, bright women who used to wear Armani suits and high heels in their jobs as doctors and lawyers and teachers before the Islamic Fundamentalists came into power - and even after that, there were periods of “laxity” where women could drive or go around unveiled. In 100 years, you might have a point, but cultural relativism doesn’t apply yet. These are oppressed Westernized women, not Amazons who have never known a different life. (Sorry, I’m reading [Reading Lolita in Tehran](http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Lolita-Tehran-Memoir-Books/dp/081297106X) right now, and it’s got my hackles up a bit.) ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/104 "2006-09-25T16:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] In reality, I’m not so sure that the multiple wives and/or concubines were completely ruled by the Sultan. Women have their ways, even with absolute despots 🙂 [/QUOTE] If you’ve not read it, I sincerely recommend _God Knows_ by Joseph Heller, which you just reminded me of. Lots of humourous moaning from King David about how his wife Bathsheba won’t let him go in unto her, and keeps fobbing him off with younger concubines. Plus great bitchiness about how brilliant he is in general, and how that hack Michelangelo didn’t get his penis right. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/105 "2006-09-25T19:15:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] People accept as “normal” what they see around them every day. An Amazonian woman doesn’t feel embarassed to walk around with her boobies swinging free in front of God and everybody because everyone around her does the same. An Amazonian woman who suddenly started covering her breasts out of a desire for privacy would probably be thought of as very odd. Likewise, if I suddenly took to wearing a burkha whenever I leave the house, people would wonder why. [/QUOTE] Bad example. Kings and queens knew that other people had a measure of privacy that they didn’t enjoy. They knew that other people were not followed around 24/7, so they could have wished for \*that \*measure of privacy, not necessarily the kidn of privacy that we enjoy today. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/106 "2006-09-26T05:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] In 100 years, you might have a point, but cultural relativism doesn’t apply yet. These are oppressed Westernized women, not Amazons who have never known a different life. [/QUOTE] Why is cultural relativism qualified by time? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/107 "2006-09-26T13:47:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kozmik] Why is cultural relativism qualified by time? 😕 [/QUOTE] Well, assuming that cultural relativism is ever appropriate when deciding if people are happy with their lot (which is what \*\*Lissa \*\*was talking about), then surely it can’t apply to people who lived a different way and were forced to change within living memory. They are not content with the way things are because they’ve been taught them by infancy, as \*\*Lissa \*\*suggested. They may be content for other reasons (although I don’t think that’s true for the majority of women in fundamentalist Islamic states, based on what I’ve been reading lately), but it’s not because “it’s always been that way” and they can’t fathom feeling differently. Like I said, I don’t neccesarily disagree that people should be able to live within their own cultural framework, or that what you grow up with is comfortable for you, but I disagree with her using veiling of all Islamic women as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/108 "2006-09-27T13:09:53Z")
The more I think about it, the more I think the Rulers Of Old still got a better deal. I don’t see a state of Australia called “Martini”, there isn’t a “Martini Falls” in East Africa, and an entire period of history is not yet referred to as “The Martini Era”. Sure, I’ve got my internet, and my computer games, and my cellphone, and my car, and my DVDs… But if I could trade all that and be ruler of the British Empire, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Don’t try and tell me being Emperor of India, Large Chunks Of Africa, Hong Kong, And Assorted Parts Of Asia And The Middle East wouldn’t be a billion times better than my life as it is now… ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/109 "2006-09-27T14:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] Bad example. Kings and queens knew that other people had a measure of privacy that they didn’t enjoy. They knew that other people were not followed around 24/7, so they could have wished for \*that \*measure of privacy, not necessarily the kidn of privacy that we enjoy today. [/QUOTE] “Ordinary” people didn’t have it much better. Maybe they weren’t followed and hounded like kings, but there was rarely a moment when no one else was around. The poor generally only had one room in their houses. Everyone slept, ate, eliminated and worked together. The wealthy had their own courts which were similar in structure to the king’s court. They had their own hangers-on who begged for favors and appointments, just like they themselves begged the king. The whole system worked that way: you always tried to get close to anyone of higher status. For an untitled merchant, it would be the local lord they sucked up to, and that local lord probably sucked up to a baron, who in turn sucked up to the earl, who in turn sucked up to the duke, who in turn, sucked up to the king. So, everyone the king knew lived the court lifestyle, being begged for favors by those lower then they and in turn, begging those above them for favors. The opnly people exempt from it would have been the peasants, and it’s doubtful a king would have envied anything about their lives. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/110 "2006-09-27T14:32:35Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Looks like Henry VIII didn’t get much privacy… > **[Groom of the Stool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_of_the_stool)** > > The Groom of the Stool (formally styled: "Groom of the King's Close Stool") was the most intimate of an English monarch's courtiers, initially responsible for assisting the king in excretion and hygiene. The physical intimacy of the role naturally led to his becoming a man in whom much confidence was placed by his royal master and with whom many royal secrets were shared as a matter of course. This secret information – while it would never have been revealed, for it would have led to the discred... [/QUOTE] In other words “Henry couldn’t find his own rear end!” ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/111 "2006-09-27T21:45:40Z")
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield] Don’t try and tell me being Emperor of India, Large Chunks Of Africa, Hong Kong, And Assorted Parts Of Asia And The Middle East wouldn’t be a billion times better than my life as it is now… [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t do that, but only because I know little of your life. As for me, though… I’d pass the emperorship to someone else. I can sit here drinking wine and writing bullshit with you guys without having someone hassle me about unrest among the Hindus or the latest Zulu attacks or the trade situation in Ceylon or Chinese attempts to encroach on Hong Kong. I’ve spent the day doing precisely whatever I felt like, eating good food and playing games with friends. The Emperor of Alotofstuff doesn’t have days like that. I mean, seriously, what’s the big upside to being the emperor? I can see the upside of money, but what’s the upside of power and responsibility? Call me unambitious, but while I wouldn’t mind a hundred hot wives (provided they all actually, you know, liked me) the power and social stature can go hang. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/112 "2006-09-28T02:14:40Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I wouldn’t do that, but only because I know little of your life. As for me, though… I’d pass the emperorship to someone else. I can sit here drinking wine and writing bullshit with you guys without having someone hassle me about unrest among the Hindus or the latest Zulu attacks or the trade situation in Ceylon or Chinese attempts to encroach on Hong Kong. I’ve spent the day doing precisely whatever I felt like, eating good food and playing games with friends. The Emperor of Alotofstuff doesn’t have days like that. [/quote] That’s the thing… I’d _love_ all that. People coming to me with unrest amongst the Zulus, Hindu and Muslims fighting in the North-West Frontier, The Chinese complaining about all that Opium we’re flooding their country with, the Ceylonese wanting better trade terms for their Tea, and so on, at which point I could make them kiss my Imperial Pinky Ring, dismiss them with a wave of my hand, then summon another underling to put my decisions into action. > [@](#): > > I mean, seriously, what’s the big upside to being the emperor? See above… Power corrupts. Absolute power is incredibly cool. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/113 "2006-09-28T18:08:59Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I think it was Louis XVI who had a special throne built so he could shit and hold court at the same time… [/QUOTE] Hell, Lyndon Johnson used to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/114 "2006-09-28T18:14:52Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] Hell, Lyndon Johnson used to do that. [/QUOTE] What? Poach Cobra eggs? ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/115 "2006-09-30T01:07:16Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] I really don’t buy this at all. Life expentancy is nice but I am not sure it beats wealth, power and social status. [/QUOTE] Hey, read the book and tell me what part you disagree with. It’s not just life expectancy. I threw out a few quick examples, but there are many more. Let’s say Rockefeller had muscle aches and needed some Advil, or he wanted some Lean Cuisine pronto, and can’t find the damn microwave, or wanted to chat with his friend in San Francisco while he was walking through downtown Boston…It’s endless. But if you value social status and power then there’s no argument, Rockefeller wins. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/116 "2006-09-30T14:32:48Z")
there is an interesting series of books from eric flint that happen in the 1630’s. the people from the 1600 are gobsmaked by the weath of the average west virginian of 2000. yeah, rulers had a gaggle of women, but they didn’t have healthy sharpshooting cheerleaders. they were able to id the tsarina (alexandra) by her teeth. the amount of dental work she had done without novacain… oh goodness, i live a lot better than her. she must have been in unbelievable pain a good portion of the time. just think about the fires for a minute. large city fires. surviving burns even 30 years ago, let alone 100 years ago. glad i live in the usa today. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/117 "2006-09-30T14:51:07Z")
I saw in some show or other that a significant proportion of pharaohs died of dental-related diseases. Apparently because they used stone mills to grind the wheat a lot of sand ended in the bread, which in turn corroded their teeth down to stumps. :eek: They lived in pain for years and then died in pain. Thank you but no. You want to see what it is like? Tune in to a Jerry Springer show and multiply that for ten. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822/118 "2006-09-30T22:33:19Z")
[QUOTE=The Controvert] Let’s compare an average American middle-class person with a great sultan or pharoah. Are there any counter examples? [/QUOTE] It hasn’t been but a few decades since the old outhouse with c0rn cobs and/or ‘Sears’ wipes were still in use in some places. [**Ode to The Outhouse**](http://www.jldr.com/odepoem.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-regular-people-today-enjoy-a-better-life-than-the-great-rulers-of-the-past/372822.md?page=5)