Do regular people today enjoy a better life than the great rulers of the past?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=The Controvert]
Keep in mind, the hotties 2000 years ago might not compare well with the hotties of today…
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, to be honest - given a choice between still shots from the Internet, and real sex with my choice of women from a time period

  • before modern orthodontics
  • hell, before modern dentistry
  • before modern ideas towards nutrition
  • before modern ideas towards hygiene
  • when smallpox scars were normal
  • when STDs were simply unavoidable

… yeah, I’m sticking with the Internet hotties.

42

I’m the first one to mention leisure time? We have more, but an average person still has to do some sort of work to get all the modern things. Did past rulers have more or less things to do than an average worker today?

43

[QUOTE=riker1384]
I’m the first one to mention leisure time? We have more, but an average person still has to do some sort of work to get all the modern things. Did past rulers have more or less things to do than an average worker today?
[/QUOTE]

Does foiling assassins count as work? Assassination was a work-related hazard for monarchs and emperors.

44

[QUOTE=Nature’s Call]
Me: Boss does something that makes my life a living hell, I grumble, mutter under my breath, then punch in the next day anyways.

Pharaoh: “Off with his head”

Advantage: Pharaoh.
[/QUOTE]
The job of Pharoh is often sought after by violent overthrow. I’ll Keep my anonymous head, sit in heated/air-conditioned comfort while eating/drinking an infinite choice of food and drink in front of a box that gives me 100’s of channels of entertainment. Don’t even have to clap, just push a button to change channels. Also have an infinite number of really cool hobbies to involve myself with. Flying, scuba diving, skiing, bike riding… whatever.

Interesting topic because I’ve always thought I led a far more luxurious life than the wealthiest person did at the turn of the 19th century.

45

[QUOTE=riker1384]
I’m the first one to mention leisure time? We have more, but an average person still has to do some sort of work to get all the modern things. Did past rulers have more or less things to do than an average worker today?
[/QUOTE]

It really depended on the ruler themselves. Elizabeth I and her older sister Mary I were known to get up very early in the morning and work until late in the evenings. Both of them were rulers who wanted to have as much as possible under their direct control. They did have leisure time, but even their contemparies remarked on their dedication to their jobs.

On the other hand, their father, King Henry VIII, pretty much dumped all of his work on his ministers and spent the majority of his time in leisure persuits. (He liked to do the necessary paperwork during morning mass so that he could get two unpleasant tasks done at once.)

46

[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor]
That wasn’t the only thing you took.

Where’s my mongoose? :dubious:
[/QUOTE]

Given that, according to my agents, you are even as we speak training hordes of cobras to assassinate me, I can’t believe you are wondering why I took your mongoose.

47

Add me to those who think we have it better in terms medicine esp. re life expectancy - a blue collar Appalachian kid’s life expectancy is still ~72ish years today. Caesar’s boy ~40 something.

I also prefer living in a world where I have an average Westerner’s basic concept of weather, astronomy, physics, chemistry, genetics etc. As opposed to even Pharaoh and Alexander believing in things (for example) like Apollo’s chariot, Celestial sphere’s, witchcraft, being trapped in the mindset of “demon haunted world” where I needed my sorcerers to ward off the evil eye, angry underground earthquke making dwarfs, dragons, curses etc. and interpret the omens in the heavens and my dreams

48

[QUOTE=John Corrado]
Yeah, to be honest - given a choice between still shots from the Internet, and real sex with my choice of women from a time period

  • before modern orthodontics
  • hell, before modern dentistry
  • before modern ideas towards nutrition
  • before modern ideas towards hygiene
  • when smallpox scars were normal
  • when STDs were simply unavoidable

… yeah, I’m sticking with the Internet hotties.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but when they’re about 12 years old, the cosmetic problems aren’t really in existence yet. Many a harem consisted of older has-beens with children and the younger current favorites. It was not uncommon to marry a 13 year old girl, so I think it’s safe to assume most harems had girls at least that young.

Can’t touch this one. Advantage: no comment.

49

Household Gods was by Larry Turtledove and Judith Tarr.

50

:smack:

HARRY Turtledove…

51

[QUOTE=jimmmy]
Add me to those who think we have it better in terms medicine esp. re life expectancy - a blue collar Appalachian kid’s life expectancy is still ~72ish years today. Caesar’s boy ~40 something.
[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? Until things got all wonky at the end of the Republic, the earliest you could become consul was 42. The Romans had plenty of long-lived leaders. Cato the Censor died in his mid eighties, Gaius Marius at 71, Cicero was 63 when he was killed by Marc Antony, Caesar was when killed by 66, Augustus died in bed at 77, Tiberius at 76, Diocletian managed to live to be 67 and died at his retirement palace in Croatia. Justinian died at the ripe old age of 82. (Of course, he and Theodora worshipped demons and probably sold their souls for longevity, but who’s counting? :wink: The Greeks didn’t do too badly, either. Pericles: died (of plague) at 66. Solon lived to be 70.

As for the common people, things are significantly less rosy. But it’s worth mentioning that legionnaires didn’t retire until they were 45, and that after 25 years of hard service. When you were done you got a farm. I don’t know if a cheap watch at 65 is better or worse…

52

[QUOTE=John Corrado]
Yeah, to be honest - given a choice between still shots from the Internet, and real sex with my choice of women from a time period

  • before modern orthodontics
  • hell, before modern dentistry
  • before modern ideas towards nutrition
  • before modern ideas towards hygiene
  • when smallpox scars were normal
  • when STDs were simply unavoidable

… yeah, I’m sticking with the Internet hotties.
[/QUOTE]
Remember that no matter what the hottest hottie you’ve ever seen actually looks like, it’s still the hottest hottie you’ve ever seen. It’s not like the Sultans walked around wishing their wives looked more like Internet hotties of today.

53

This old saw about “people only lived to be 40 or so” comes about from a misunderstanding of what “life expectancy” means. When LE is calculated, it’s done by taking the age at death of a significant sample of the population and averaging those numbers. The low LE of ancient and medieval times doesn’t come from everybody only living until 40. It comes from a hell of a lot more infant mortality than we (generally) have now. Once human beings get through infancy and early childhood, they’re as likely to live till 60 or 70 as they are to live to 40 or so, even back in “olden days”.

54

[QUOTE=RickJay]
I really don’t buy this. You’re saying Elizabeth I or Augustus Caesar couldn’t take a shit without people watching? Somehow I think the Queen was allowed to tell people to let her crap in peace.
[/QUOTE]

I think it was Louis XVI who had a special throne built so he could shit and hold court at the same time. It wasn’t a matter of not being able to order people away while you’re crapping; it was just that it would never have occured to a monarch to make such an order. The concept of requiring or desiring privacy while going to the bathroom simply didn’t exist until very recently.

55

[QUOTE=sinjin]
What are you talking about? Until things got all wonky at the end of the Republic, the earliest you could become consul was 42. The Romans had plenty of long-lived leaders. Cato the Censor died in his mid eighties, Gaius Marius at 71, Cicero was 63 when he was killed by Marc Antony, Caesar was when killed by 66, Augustus died in bed at 77, Tiberius at 76, Diocletian managed to live to be 67 and died at his retirement palace in Croatia. Justinian died at the ripe old age of 82. (Of course, he and Theodora worshipped demons and probably sold their souls for longevity, but who’s counting? :wink: The Greeks didn’t do too badly, either. Pericles: died (of plague) at 66. Solon lived to be 70.

As for the common people, things are significantly less rosy. But it’s worth mentioning that legionnaires didn’t retire until they were 45, and that after 25 years of hard service. When you were done you got a farm. I don’t know if a cheap watch at 65 is better or worse…
[/QUOTE]

Hey I am the first to jump to point out the dubiousness of Roman Life expectancy statistics. All modern estimates are based on small ancient data samples, usually anecdotes and sets of human remains, and anyone intellectually honest , and who understands what Life Expectancy at birth means, is going say that what is available is simply not enough to draw valid statistical conclusions. I certainly get that.

Having said that, I am unaware of any serious scholar who would quibble that Roman life expectancy was roughly 40, or would state flatly Roman Nobles expectancy was vastly greater than that. I can offer cites as to what I am talking about. Virtually any Google search on Roman life expectancy will undermine my contention THE OTHER WAY – saying I am being too optimistic
QUOTES:

*In the upper classes, women on average had their first child at 15. Family size was limited through infanticide, by exposure to the elements; by effective, if dangerous, forms of artificial birth control; and by equally dangerous abortions. Life expectancy for males at birth was between 20 and 30 years .

It has been estimated by Keith Hopkins that for the entire population the average life expectancy at birth was 20-30 years.

A Chart
Tombstones show that the life expectancy of women was 34 years as contrasted with 46 years for men because women often died in childbirth.*

I understand that you are saying Nobles lived longer – probably true. But we simply don’t know and based on what we do know there is simply no academic basis for you to get out there goggle-eyed, shocked acting like what I said was crazy.

56

[QUOTE=sinjin]
As for the common people, things are significantly less rosy. But it’s worth mentioning that legionnaires didn’t retire until they were 45, and that after 25 years of hard service. When you were done you got a farm. I don’t know if a cheap watch at 65 is better or worse…
[/QUOTE]

Well, sure that was the retirement plan, but how many legionnaires survived long enough to actually get that farm?

57

[QUOTE=Eve]
Privacy. The concept of privacy hardly existed till the late 19th century. Kings and queens, especially, couldn’t dress or use the toilet or eat without a retinue.

Advantage: us.
[/QUOTE]
One could argue that the kings and queens of the 21st century have less privacy then their 19th century predecessors.

58

[QUOTE=Miller]
I think it was Louis XVI who had a special throne built so he could shit and hold court at the same time.
[/QUOTE]

Talk about your shitty government.

Thanks, I’ll be here all night. Make sure to tip your groom of the stool.

59

Supposedly the Roman emperor Elegabulus offered rulership of half the known civilized world to anyone who could make his body into that of a woman’s. These days he could just book a flight to Thailand.

60

[QUOTE=Lamb Chop]
Supposedly the Roman emperor Elegabulus offered rulership of half the known civilized world to anyone who could make his body into that of a woman’s. These days he could just book a flight to Thailand.
[/QUOTE]

Well, not just book a flight to Thailand… and for some of the trans folk I know, what they’re charging might as well be half the civilized world.