# Do San Francisco, Los Angeles, et alii prove the failure of progressivism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 5, 2023, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101 "2023-08-05T12:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/101 "2023-08-08T05:09:18Z")
Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/102 "2023-08-08T05:29:23Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > Unless Americans are uniquely more likely to be criminals, there really shouldn’t be any reason why so many people are locked up. > > A lot of Americans think that other Americans _are_ uniquely more likely to be criminals — far more likely. So they are probably happy that we lock so many people up. Actually, I think America is unique, in some aspects to its criminal population. Take the recent (and I think, new) phenomenon of mass shoplifting. A person walks into a store, and pushes several hundred items off the shelves into a large container and then proudly walks out the door. Or picks up a large screen TV on his shoulder and proudly walks out the door. All in full view .Does this happen in Germany or Australia or Denmark? And another phenomenon which everyone will agree is unique to America: the massive use of guns by criminals.Again…this simply does not happen in Australia, England, etc. a related question, which I know nothing about: what goes on in the poor suburbs of Paris? (banlieus). They have lots of crime, lots of vehicles set on fire.But it seems to be very localized, to the specific neighborhoods. What is the arrest rate there? (not of the whole country of France, which I am sure is much lower than America…but what about the poor neighborhoods?) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/103 "2023-08-08T05:31:42Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Take the recent (and I think, new) phenomenon of mass shoplifting. A person walks into a store, and pushes several hundred items off the shelves into a large container and then proudly walks out the door. Or picks up a large screen TV on his shoulder and proudly walks out the door. All in full view . Where are the police? (they have not been “defunded” at all…they have close to as much money as they have ever had, if not more) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/104 "2023-08-08T07:43:21Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Actually, I think America is unique, in some aspects to its criminal population. > Take the recent (and I think, new) phenomenon of mass shoplifting. …what you see as a “new phenomenon of mass shoplifting” I see as the inevitable consequence of a society that tolerates hospitals dumping patients on the side walk. That hasn’t had a rise in the Federal minimum wage in decades. Where people can go bankrupt due to medical bills. Where police have astronomical budgets but can barely solve a crime, that has a schools to prison pipeline that disproportionately targets Black and indigenous peoples. _Thats_ what makes America unique. It isn’t unique in some “aspects of its criminal population.” It’s unique in terms of its attitude of “I’ve got mine, I don’t care about you.” In a society that casually cuts back on [food stamps](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/food-stamps-snap-benefits-cuts-march-2023/), that ties healthcare to unemployment, that demonises unions, that thinks that if you end up without a home its all your fault. > [@chappachula](#): > > Does this happen in Germany or Australia or Denmark? Germany and Australia and Denmark all have strong social safety nets. Even when the government in power lean rightward, they would never be allowed to get away with the kind-of-nonsense we see play out every day in the United States. And I’m skeptical about this “phenomenon of mass shoplifting” anyway. The data I’ve been looking at shows surges after major financial events: a surge after 9/11. A surge after the financial collapse in 2007. Now a surge after covid. The common factor here isn’t “people deciding to do more crime” but financial insecurity. This is all things that progressive policies are designed to address. And if you want to see if they are working, then you don’t look to the US, where progressive policies are few-and-far between. You look to Germany, or Australia, or Denmark. Yes, crime exists in those countries. Yes, there are surges right now with unusual crimes like ram-raids. No, the solution isn’t to start locking people up for months, if not years without conviction like they do in the United States. > [@chappachula](#): > > related question, which I know nothing about: what goes on in the poor suburbs of Paris? (banlieus). They have lots of crime, lots of vehicles set on fire.But it seems to be very localized, to the specific neighborhoods. What is the arrest rate there? (not of the whole country of France, which I am sure is much lower than America…but what about the poor neighborhoods?) What about them? How many vehicles set on fire are we talking about? “Shoplifting” and “cars on fire” sound like things that get amplified by right-wing media and are far from the big problems facing either country right now. You don’t fix the industrial prison pipeline by arresting and locking away more and more shoplifters. The priorities are all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/105 "2023-08-08T11:52:45Z")
One of the identifying features of “Conservatives” is that they lie. About everything. About anything. Lying is the primary hallmark of conservatives. Therefore any numbers from a “conservative” city is automatically suspect. In general “conservative” areas perform worse in every metric. Higher taxes, higher crime, much lower life expectancy. So it would be remarkable if they would suddenly perform better in preventing homelessness. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/106 "2023-08-08T12:08:38Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And this is not meant to be an indictment of general Democratic ideals but the ultra left-wing part of the party like Warren, Sanders and AOC. It seems like when the Progressives are in charge for a long time and are fairly secure in running a state or city, we see the same results Ideology isn’t the root cause of “everything going into the crapper”. The cause for many if not most of our issues is over population. There are way too many of us in this world; over 8 billion in fact, and it will be something like 10 billion by 2060 if everything doesn’t go sideways before then. Over population causes or greatly exacerbates the decay of the environment, the inevitable exhaustion of our non-renewable resources, the ever increasing socio-political tensions in the world, and you can probably throw in a few more problems I haven’t thought of. [**Eighty-five percent of you have got to go!**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36c8RqJ4uA8) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/107 "2023-08-08T14:01:55Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > One of the identifying features of “Conservatives” is that they lie. About everything. About anything. … In general “conservative” areas perform worse in every metric. … Well, “lie” might be a bit harsh. But, the RW ethos is unmistakably far superior to any of that lefty, or even moderate, ideology. It is simply truth, not some goofy set of ideals, and so, if the results appear flawed, we find the statistician who can correctly manipulate the data to make it look great. And if one of our policies looks like it is not working, we must not be doing it hard enough, more of it should fix the problem. Because, life was so much better back then. (_there are liars_, damn _liars, and then there are statisticians_) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/108 "2023-08-08T14:19:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I asked for a cite that “the police aren’t arresting people because “no charges are being filed”. …about that. In Portland: > [@](#): > > I asked him again about his press conference two years ago when he broadcast to everyone **that the PPB wasn’t able to enforce traffic laws.** And he finally admitted that it wasn’t a good idea. **And that it was a political move.** **“We needed to create a stir to get some change to get them [city council] to fund us back up,”** he said. “I mean that’s the honest truth. I know that could make things more dangerous. I don’t know. But at the same time, we needed some change.” [https://bikeportland.org/2023/08/07/protestors-shout-down-officials-at-road-safety-press-conference-377884](https://bikeportland.org/2023/08/07/protestors-shout-down-officials-at-road-safety-press-conference-377884) It would be entirely unsurprising if it were to be found that police departments routinely don’t enforce crime as a political move in order to put pressure on authorities to give them more money. It fits the pattern time-and-time again when we hear claims like “the police aren’t arresting people because no charges are being filed”. So yeah, I think we need to test the veracity of the claims here. And the test needs to be more than just “believing what the police say.” ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/109 "2023-08-08T14:28:11Z")
Actually, Illinois has recently passed a bill to remove cash bail ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/110 "2023-08-08T14:51:18Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Eighty-five percent of you have got to go! Don’t blame me. I voted for Thanos. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/111 "2023-08-08T15:18:51Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > For instance, some of them might stay in a motel, stay with friends, get housing assistance, get a job, etc. Some of the 1,000 homeless reduction in Omelas would likely be from people getting off the streets. Not everyone who is homeless is sleeping rough. Some _are_ staying with friends and a lot of them have jobs. I’d agree that maybe simply not having a stable residence is a less clear metric than sleeping rough, but if you only count people on the streets, then you’d have to count people in homeless shelters as not being homeless which seems a bit weird. (I mean, where do you draw the line between a long term stay motel and a short term stay motel, or between staying with friends in an agreed relationship (whether or not money is involved) versus staying with friends on a temporary basis (or even a “temporary” basis.)) In fact, if you assume that the _network_ of support for all of these things is greater in the more progressive area, there might even be fewer homeless people in the non-street categories because they are more likely to be able to get formal housing assistance instead of relying on informal couch surfing and the occasional cheap motel. Whereas there are a certain percentage of people who cannot abide by the rules of a residence and so would get kicked out, so I would agree that the number of rough sleepers would increase in the more progressive city because they will move where they are not harassed. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/112 "2023-08-08T15:19:07Z")
Erm, I’m not sure which universe you live in, but in MY universe, California is doing great. It has a booming economy, by far the largest of any state. And you can’t even argue that this is due to California’s large population because we also have the 4th highest GDP per capita, after New York, Massachusetts, and Washington. Being the largest state AND being so high on the GDP Per Capita list is absolutely mind blowing. Whatever California is doing is working! Is GDP Per Capita the best or only way to measure success? Of course not, and our society probably overemphasizes GDP based metrics. But by most other measures I can think of, I prefer California as well. The idea that liberal policies are killing California is a conservative fever dream. California is thriving because of liberal policies, and where we still have problems conservative solutions are the last thing I’d look at. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/113 "2023-08-08T15:23:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It is specifically about a political faction - Progressives vs. everyone else. Progressives most definitely do not control California. California is run by relatively centrist Democrats like Gavin Newsome. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/114 "2023-08-08T15:27:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > If someone wants to counter **with facts** to show that non-Progressive cities are just as bad then let’s hear it; but if anyone takes an honest look at this thread, there are woefully few facts countering my premise that Progressively-run large cities are the crappiest in the US How about the FACT that no major cities in the US are run by “progressives”? ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/115 "2023-08-08T19:38:40Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > and apparently my hometown of Seattle is going into the crapper. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > People taxed into emigration. Those two definitely don’t go together. Seattle has a very low tax burden due to no state or local income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/116 "2023-08-08T20:14:02Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Are you seriously not aware of the general trend towards decarceration and “no bail” procedures being advocated in numerous cities around the US? This is not news. > > “That’s not happening, and it’s good that it is!” ? > > It’s not a contentious issue with regard to whether it is happening. If the DA will not charge, the cops won’t bother to arrest. Not always, often the perp is arrested, checked for priors, then released with a citation. And altho no Blue state DA (in red states the race will be more important) is gonna charge a man for stealing a loaf of bread , they wil if enough priors or other factors come in, such as serial shoplifting. Even if released on _no bail,_ they still have to come back to court, or be arrested on a warrant. They have found that bail just means a lot of poor people in jail waiting for their trail date, often for six months or even more- at a cost of about $10,000 per month. Not to mention the $K or 10K cost to arrest, arraign and try. As a taxpayer, I dont want to pay $70000 for a dude that steals $50 bucks worth of stuff. Do you? American still has more people in prison than any other free nation, per capita. So, someone must still be arrested , charged and convicted. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > ncarceration rates per capita. Of course those numbers for places like China and Russia are bogus, but still- more than any other free nation- by far. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We have a post about why progressivism is ruining cities instead of a post about why progressivism isn’t more widely embraced. Like any other set of ideals, progressivism can go to far. > [@chappachula](#): > > Or picks up a large screen TV on his shoulder and proudly walks out the door. All in full view .Does this happen in Germany or Australia or Denmark? Well, shopliting has increased worldwide. > **[Which Country Has The Worst Shoplifting Problem?](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/world-shoplifting-countries_n_1144028)** > > Which Country Has The Worst Shoplifting Problem? and Theft ratings, make the USA #12, with mostly Euro nations higher Yes, France and the UK), and _Denmark has the very highest theft rates._ > **[Theft rate by country, around the world | TheGlobalEconomy.com](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/theft/)** > > The average for 2016 based on 74 countries was 783 thefts per 100,000 people. The highest value was in Denmark: 3949 thefts per 100,000 people and the lowest value was in Senegal: 1 thefts per 100,000 people. The indicator is available from 2003 to... India has by far the highest shoplifting rates: (sorry, paywalled) > **[Lax security one reason India places high on shoplifting index](https://www.latimes.com/world/la-xpm-2011-dec-12-la-fg-india-shoplifting-20111212-story.html)** > > Lax security one reason India places high on shoplifting index And there is this: [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/18/business/retail-shoplifting-shrink-walgreens/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/18/business/retail-shoplifting-shrink-walgreens/index.html) **Stores say shoplifting is a national crisis. The numbers don’t back it up** > [@Babale](#): > > Erm, I’m not sure which universe you live in, but in MY universe, California is doing great. It has a booming economy, by far the largest of any state. Yep. But indeed- high taxes and very high home prices. Still it has the most jobs and the iirc the highest pay. If you want to sell your CA home and retire elsewhere, like many are doing- I can see that. If you want a great job- CA is the state for you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/117 "2023-08-08T20:19:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How about the FACT that no major cities in the US are run by “progressives”? SF comes very close. [https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/supervisor-scores/](https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/supervisor-scores/) and it has had a progressive majority and mayor fairly recently. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/118 "2023-08-08T20:24:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like any other set of ideals, progressivism can go to far. Sure. But it is rarely given a chance at all. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/119 "2023-08-08T20:59:10Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Those two definitely don’t go together. Seattle has a very low tax burden due to no state or local income taxes. Indeed. There seems to be a lot of fact-free premises being used to bolster the conclusion. I find it’s helpful if I check my premises for accuracy before trotting them out in public. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101/120 "2023-08-08T23:33:09Z")
I would argue that WAs low tax burden is a big part of the problem. A sales tax run state hits the poor the hardest since nearly all their money goes goods and services so everything for them is taxed (very regressive). The rich spend a small percentage and the rest of that income is state tax free. If a more progressive form of taxing (income) was implemented, the safety net could be expanded. But, that would take more progressive policy. Income tax is by nature progressive. What states have income tax? Are they all considered “progressive”, as in the title of this thread? Idaho has an income tax and it is definitely a progressive stronghold! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-san-francisco-los-angeles-et-alii-prove-the-failure-of-progressivism/988101.md?page=7)