# Do scientists believe they are better than the rest? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 22, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303 "2011-04-22T00:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/101 "2011-04-23T01:52:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Your English is reasonably good, **pinguin**. Your arguments are not. What arguments are not convincing? The problem is, people here believe I try to convince them about something. I am not. I am just asking questions, so the stereotypes fall by themselves, by its own internal contradictions.. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/102 "2011-04-23T01:55:29Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’d like to see a cite for this. It sounds like the old trope about how genius is heavily correlated with personal failure/suicide/bankruptcy/bad breath (which others have debunked). > > Besides, _I_ say it’s nonsense. And I have a Master’s Degree in Science. I also have an MSc, fellow :rolleyes:… It allows me to make classes at an U. :dubious: I don’t consider myself a scientists, though, but a practical man, closer to a plumber, a carpenter or a mechanics, than to Gallileo or Newton. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/103 "2011-04-23T01:55:46Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > What arguments are not convincing? Every argument you have ever made on this board is unconvincing ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/104 "2011-04-23T01:57:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Every argument you have ever made on this board is unconvincing But he’s just asking questions. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/105 "2011-04-23T02:02:00Z")
> [@SimonMoon5](#): > > As a mathematician, I do think I am smarter than most people. I would not say that I am smarter than most mathematicians, but I do think most mathematicians are smarter than the average person. The reason, of course, is that mathematicians are trained to think logically and use language in very specific ways, skills that I find lacking in much of the populace (or even in a number of my students). > > And while mathematicians might not make much money, there was a recent study that said that they have the least stressful job (out of all possible jobs). I guess it depends what you value more: money or a stress-free life. This is interesting. So mathematicians are like computers. Both at programmed to think logically and use the language in specific ways: C++ or Java, for instance. :rolleyes: (By the way, I am a computer plummer) ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/106 "2011-04-23T02:11:04Z")
Computers process, they don’t think. They can’t approach any problem from a new direction, or do anything that hasn’t been done before. Mathematicians can (and do) do all things. Eventually, a programmer will code up a mathematician’s novel solution to a problem or new algorithm, but the original work always has to be done by people. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/107 "2011-04-23T02:16:33Z")
Indeed. We have failed to built artificial mathematicians… so far. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/108 "2011-04-23T02:28:31Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > This is interesting. So mathematicians are like computers. Both at programmed to think logically and use the language in specific ways: C++ or Java, for instance. > > :rolleyes: (By the way, I am a computer plummer) So, the internet is really a [series of tubes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes)? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/109 "2011-04-23T02:29:22Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Indeed. We have failed to built artificial mathematicians… so far. But we have successfully built successful question-askers; almost 50 years ago, “Eliza” ([ELIZA - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA)) was able to hold a conversation, if by conversation, one meant ask questions loosely based on previous replies. Apparently creating a computer program that does creative science or math is a lot harder than creating one that asks questions. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/110 "2011-04-23T02:36:11Z")
But elisa is a toy. Something like those gadgets Alexandrian scientists made to impress the superstitious masses of Egypt. So far, A.I. has only been another way to call moder puppeteers. Hal isn’t here as yet, no matter A.I. prophets have predicted its comming since the 50s ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/111 "2011-04-23T02:42:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Have some frozen sperm for sale? No. Not frozen. > [@](#): > > And here’s some spare “Hs” for your next post. 😉 Any Ys? Actually, I kind of like the modified spelling. I might start using it regularly. Heck, why not get rid of that pesky p while we’re at it? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/112 "2011-04-23T02:44:21Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > But elisa is a toy. Something like those gadgets Alexandrian scientists made to impress the superstitious masses of Egypt. So far, A.I. has only been another way to call moder puppeteers. > > Hal isn’t here as yet, no matter A.I. prophets have predicted its comming since the 50s I agree - as I said, all it could do was ask questions vaguely related to the topic at hand, and drop in occasional non-sequitors. Good enough for a message board, but not for science or math. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/113 "2011-04-23T03:10:15Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I agree - as I said, all it could do was ask questions vaguely related to the topic at hand, and drop in occasional non-sequitors. Good enough for a message board, but not for science or math. They are now good enough to beat even the best Jeopardy Champions though. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Puhs2LuO3Zc/hqdefault.jpg "'Watson' computer wins at 'Jeopardy'") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puhs2LuO3Zc) > [@](#): > > Watson the super computer has defeated the two greatest human champs in the history of “Jeopardy.” ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/114 "2011-04-23T03:20:28Z")
Yes, but game playing is just a form of problem solving on which computers perform well. We should remember that computers are special programmed calculators. So, computers calculate very well, and faster than humans. Computers fail in common sense problems. In those kind of actions human do fast and without even thinking much on it, but that can overload a computer. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/115 "2011-04-23T03:27:18Z")
[Experts Give Up](http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-experts-give-up,682/) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/116 "2011-04-23T03:45:26Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > So, they believe they are the “chosen” people, the “superior” race, or just they are sure they are “alphas”? > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Funny, you’re reusing all the tropes of the antisemitic rant. No, the antisemitic rant would accuse them of thinking they’re “chosen,” “superior,” and “alephs.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/117 "2011-04-23T04:25:15Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Yes, but game playing is just a form of problem solving on which computers perform well. We should remember that computers are special programmed calculators. So, computers calculate very well, and faster than humans. > Computers fail in common sense problems. In those kind of actions human do fast and without even thinking much on it, but that can overload a computer. Uh, Watson does a lot of “common sense” to get the correct answers. It was mostly hard coded, but it was there. Until recently we were missing a theory of the brain so the AI people could at least had figured out what they were doing wrong all these years. I think we are now getting close to solve the issue of “common sense” and the best approach I have seen is to use constant feedback and pattern recognition, I agree with Jeff Hawkins that a lot of what one could call common sense are patterns stored in memory that are reused, many times by not using all the possible neurons on a wasteful and time consuming way. One related example is shown by the surprising skill demonstrated by even robotic devises that rely on mostly feedback and some programming. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/-KxjVlaLBmk/hqdefault.jpg "High-Speed Robot Hand") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KxjVlaLBmk) > **[Paper Abstract](https://ras.papercept.net/conferences/scripts/abstract.pl?ConfID=18&Number=1645)** Compare that to the robot arms that got more publicity recently that folded towels, it seems the approach used on that slowpoke was to painfully program all the possibilities and the computer calculated the proper solution. It works, but the unpractical slowness points to the brute force style that has hampered not only robotic, but AI. I believe that soon we will find ways to integrate continuous feedback mechanisms into systems that will properly deal with disparate information and situations that many assume only humans could deal with, we will create intelligent machines. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/118 "2011-04-23T04:35:04Z")
Perhaps you are right this time, with this approach to common sense, but allowed me to doubt. In fact, the promisses of A.I. and the failures that followed are famous, and becoming legendary. Perceptrons, semantic networks, prolog machines, neural networks and many other approaches claimmed they would build “intelligent” machines… And there always was people ensuring us Hal 9000 was just around the corner. And time has passed and we continue with machines as smart as in 1950! Yes, some toys are sophisticated, but hardly surpass the state of expensive puppets. Let’s hope you are right this time, but let me to be skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/119 "2011-04-23T04:53:39Z")
Missed the edit, here is the other robot that I was referring to: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gy5g33S0Gzo/maxresdefault.jpg "(50X) Autonomously folding a pile of 5 previously-unseen towels") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy5g33S0Gzo) That folding towels exercise is what IMHO takes place by ignoring tactile data and other feed-backs, the makers of that robot had to rely on visual clues to do the job. While not 100% related to AI, those robots are a metaphor on what has happened to the AI field, the slow robot has to infer a lot just by using visual clues. In the AI world most of the approaches to simulate human intelligence were and are missing several layers of cues and feed-backs that are second nature to us humans. (This being a metaphor one has to point out that the slow robot was missing tactile information because the researchers were concentrating just on visual geometric cues.) It is by combining systems that record those feed-backs as patterns and adding a memory prediction framework to recognize those patterns, that will IMHO give us strong AI in the near future. [http://www.numenta.com/htm-overview/education.php](http://www.numenta.com/htm-overview/education.php) ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303/120 "2011-04-23T05:00:35Z")
Interesting. I’ll take a look. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-scientists-believe-they-are-better-than-the-rest/579303.md?page=7)