# Do sexism, racism, or other prejudices bother you in period fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 20, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901 "2010-06-20T20:28:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/21 "2010-06-21T05:21:42Z")
Agree with the OP, its more distracting when a historical characters morals seem overly modern. First example I can think of was in that Revolutionary War movie with Mel Gibson where the respected white plantation owner happens to be one of the few such that doesn’t use slave labor. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/22 "2010-06-21T05:33:01Z")
I love to read vintage science fiction novels, but I really have to turn my modern brain off in the area of women’s rights. Shows like Star Trek: The Original Series are also a bit hard to watch in that way with the rampant sexism, but I can tolerate it. I don’t like things like the revisionism in movies like “Blazing Saddles” - the racism in that movie was a satire/parody; taking it all out completely eviscerates the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/23 "2010-06-21T05:34:21Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Agree with the OP, its more distracting when a historical characters morals seem overly modern. First example I can think of was in that Revolutionary War movie with Mel Gibson where the respected white plantation owner happens to be one of the few such that doesn’t use slave labor. Jarring to me is when aliens, Romans, Americans, the French, Greeks, etc. speak with a British accent. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/24 "2010-06-21T10:18:08Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I love to read vintage science fiction novels, but I really have to turn my modern brain off in the area of women’s rights. Shows like Star Trek: The Original Series are also a bit hard to watch in that way with the rampant sexism, but I can tolerate it. I don’t like things like the revisionism in movies like “Blazing Saddles” - the racism in that movie was a satire/parody; taking it all out completely eviscerates the movie. What revisionism are you talking about in _Saddles_? Do you mean removing the word _nigger_ for broadcast on tv, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/25 "2010-06-21T10:20:00Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Jarring to me is when aliens, Romans, Americans, the French, Greeks, etc. speak with a British accent. Because? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/26 "2010-06-21T10:35:56Z")
I have more of a problem with racism/sexism when the author is trying to use it as a cod-liver-oil moral lesson to the audience, i.e. _Men of Honor_, in which the main character (a black guy trying to go through Navy diving school in the early fifties) is _so_ heroic and flawless and the bigots around him are consistently cowards or nutcases. It made me want to watch a good documentary about Carl Brashear, the diver on whom the movie was (quite loosely, I figure) based. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/27 "2010-06-21T11:29:55Z")
One thing that strikes me when reading older fiction is the casual racism displayed by the authors. I recently read a story set on a sport fishing boat out of Florida. One character referred to a coral reef feature as “nigger heads,” with the only intention of keeping another character from ripping out the bottom of the boat. No malice, no animosity, no sense of satire, this was just what (white) men out on the water called a type of coral head. Casual sexism doesn’t ping my radar as much for some reason, perhaps I don’t read the right kind of stories to encounter it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/28 "2010-06-21T11:31:59Z")
No, unless I get the impression that the writer has set the book/etc in that period purely so that they’ll have an excuse to be bigoted. I can’t think of any specific examples of that right now, and it is of course a subjective interpretation on my part. There’s a kids’ series called ‘Roman Mysteries’ which is a normal gang of kids having adventures and finding criminals, but in ancient Rome. The kids are a blonde-haired rich girl, her black slave and their Christian neighbour; everyone treats them as equals. Yup, even the slave, who’s only a slave in a technical sense - she doesn’t do any work and she has lessons alongside the rich white girl. The Christian is never persecuted and there are several speeches about how all religions should be respected. It is really, really jarring. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/29 "2010-06-21T11:53:43Z")
I think it would be more jarring/disturbing or at least unrealistic to do a period piece where the racist or sexist attitudes don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/30 "2010-06-21T12:27:28Z")
My problem is with “accurate” historical stories that assume that \*everyone \*in a certain time of place was equally sexist, racist and prejudiced, which simply isn’t true. Every period had people who were slightly ahead of the curve, so to speak - there \*were \*medieval knights who respected their wives, thought some foreigners were all right, and didn’t consider peasants to be animals. They weren’t neccessaily crusadors for equal rights, but at least they had some level of insight and self-awareness. That’s what I ask from protagonists in historical or fantasy novels: not that they be tolerant and open minded in modern terms, but that they be tolerant and open minded by their own standards. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/31 "2010-06-21T12:32:08Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > I think it would be more jarring/disturbing or at least unrealistic to do a period piece where the racist or sexist attitudes don’t exist. Interesting how racism and sexism is nearly universal for aliens and science fiction. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/32 "2010-06-21T13:48:41Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Not at all. As an English lit major, I’ve seen it all. > > What does get to me though is smoking. Last night I was watching Die Hard, and people were smoking at the airport, in office buildings, in the bathrooms, etc. etc. etc. > > I’m shocked at how bad it’s gotten for smokers today. And are you equally shocked at how bad nonsmokers (especially people with breathing problems) had it back then? Think about Lethal Weapon, where Mel Gibson’s character is called on the carpet by his supervisor, and how Gibson’s character casually smokes in front of the No Smoking sign, and when it’s called to his attention, he makes a point of blowing smoke in the supervisor’s face. Sure, this is meant to imply that his character is a real badass, but it also shows that a lot of people thought that the No Smoking signs and areas were nothing but a big joke. As to the OP, sometimes the casual display of racism or sexism DOES bother me greatly. It really depends on how the author handles it. If it’s a period author, sometimes I am gobsmacked at the casual racism and sexism. For instance, I can hardly read Agatha Christie any more. It’s clear from her writings that she thought that only the English were full humans…and she casually assumed that everyone knew that the English were intellectually and morally superior than all other nationalities. Rudyard Kipling is also a very fine author, but his sexism and racism are astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/33 "2010-06-21T14:16:51Z")
Steven Saylors books are particulary bad for presentism, set in ancient Rome his books are virtually unreadable for people who actually know anything about the period. If you can’t accept that people in different periods throughout history had completely different attitudes to many thingsthen you really shouldn’t read period books. If you’re a vegetarian who voluntarily goes to a Steakhouse then be prepared to suck it up. The Ancient Greeks were incredibly sexist, the Romans took slavery for granted as did many other societies. Hygiene in the Middle Ages was appalling,and in other more recent times Bearbaiting and Cockfighting were were normal forms of entertainment. Just to cover just a few things that people find offensive today. If you’re easily offended then confine yourself to safer literature. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/34 "2010-06-21T14:17:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My problem is with “accurate” historical stories that assume that \*everyone \*in a certain time of place was equally sexist, racist and prejudiced, which simply isn’t true. Every period had people who were slightly ahead of the curve, so to speak - there \*were \*medieval knights who respected their wives, thought some foreigners were all right, and didn’t consider peasants to be animals. They weren’t neccessaily crusadors for equal rights, but at least they had some level of insight and self-awareness. Was this actually so, though? I don’t have any trouble believing that there were _people_ during the medieval era such as you describe - after all, we’re talking about a large swath of history, and Europe was a big place. But knights, as I understand it, were a very small minority towards the top of the social hierarchy - they required the resources of considerable numbers of peasants in order to afford their horses, armor, and a lifetime of training, and they weren’t exactly squeamish about extracting those resources. Knights were educated from an early age to exploit and oppress the peasant class - would have been hard for them to be ahead of the curve. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/35 "2010-06-21T14:34:27Z")
I’m sure there were plenty of knights who saw themselves as protectors of their people - saw themselves responsible for preserving peace and law in their lands. The horses and armor were their fief’s defense budget, and while taxes could burdensome, it’s possible that neither side thought of them as theft. It’s a blurry line between “exploiting and oppressing”, and “ruling fairly”. I’m sure many knights tended towards the former, but some had to see it as the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/36 "2010-06-21T17:13:23Z")
Smoking (or not smoking) in movies is racist? > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Cigarette smoking predated WWI; but you usually rolled your own. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/37 "2010-06-21T18:54:13Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Flatland is a good example of that which advocates bigotry and misogyny. The way that it talks about how character is directly linked to the regularity of ones angles and sides is a clear analogy for racism. The way females are dealt with, as if they are simply breeding stock and not quite people comes off as misogynistic to me. I am very torn by this work because it does so well illustrate a mathematical concept, and seems to beg us to think beyond our own dimension, the way prejudice and stereotypes are treated as gospel quite put me off. Am I correct that you take any espousal of racist or sexist attitudes by a character to be advocating same? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/38 "2010-06-21T19:04:48Z")
I think a good writer has a voice of his own that can be heard past those of his or her characters. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/39 "2010-06-21T19:11:04Z")
Racism in stories written in the past doesn’t disturb me per se, but you can draw the distinction between the casual racism prevalent then and true racism. For example, the original Tom Swift stories, written in the first few decades of the last century, had a black character who was one of Tom’s assistants. While he spoke in dialect, he was hard working, reasonably smart, and loyal. In the original Nancy Drew books, written three decades later, the black characters were nasty and evil, and none were on Nancy’s side. They were far more disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/40 "2010-06-21T19:17:31Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I love to read vintage science fiction novels, but I really have to turn my modern brain off in the area of women’s rights. Shows like Star Trek: The Original Series are also a bit hard to watch in that way with the rampant sexism, but I can tolerate it. I don’t like things like the revisionism in movies like “Blazing Saddles” - the racism in that movie was a satire/parody; taking it all out completely eviscerates the movie. ST-TOS is an excellent case study. In the first pilot, Roddenberry cast Majel Barrett and Number One, second in command. This was way too much for the network, so Spock got promoted in the second pilot. He pushed as hard as he could to show women in important and equal roles, though given the times he eventually concentrated more on racism. Forget the kiss - far more importantly, in “Court Martial” he made Kirk’s superior black, which was revolutionary at the time - especially because no one paid this any attention, just like we wouldn’t today. If you want some real sexism, try “The Man from UNCLE.” I remembered this fondly, but when we re-watched it, every woman is an empty headed ditz existing to get pulled around and rescued by Robert Vaughn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901.md?page=3)