# Do sexism, racism, or other prejudices bother you in period fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 20, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901 "2010-06-20T20:28:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/141 "2010-06-25T18:52:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I apologize for participating in the hijack, And I cannot accept your apology, as I was a major participant my ownself. You can send me a cookie if you want. > [@](#): > > but it at least brought up an interesting and relevant point - how can we tell racism and sexism? I just think the situations are entirely different in historical fiction and fiction set in the future. In the former, we have (in some cases) a good idea of what the attitudes were; in the latter case it’s only a guess. > [@](#): > > In some places it is obvious, like the Nancy Drew books I mentioned. But if there is a book set in the past which ignores the few exceptions to general sex roles, and goes with the more general roles of women, say, is it sexist still? if a novel about late 19th century science does not include Marie Curie or someone like her, is the author committing a sin? Science is very broad. If you’re writing a novel about James Clerk Maxwell, why would you bring up Marie Curie? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/142 "2010-06-25T19:06:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Science is very broad. If you’re writing a novel about James Clerk Maxwell, why would you bring up Marie Curie? Because she was hot? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/143 "2010-06-25T19:17:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course it’s off-topic. Did you read the OP? Two posts after the OP, someone asked if you meant works set in the past, or works written in the past, and you responded ‘feel free to discuss either.’ > [@Voyager](#): > > I see. By the definition that racism is when a carefully allocated quota of minorities does not appear, I agree it is. By any other standard, no. Well, it’s not just that, and I’m not advocating any false allocated quota of minorities! That’s a strawman. But yeah, having almost all the senior people be white American men is racist, even if it’s not on the lines of lynching or genocide, and I can understand why they did it. Once again, the show was very good for its time. In the same way that Uhura as an officer was a good role model for black women, all those white male officers were also role models for white men, and there were a lot more of them - a hell of a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/144 "2010-06-25T19:22:51Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > And I cannot accept your apology, as I was a major participant my ownself. You can send me a cookie if you want. When I was on PLATO I could hit term and type cookie, and it would be done. I think we need to update the SDMB to give similar capability. We are so primitive, here in the future. > [@](#): > > I just think the situations are entirely different in historical fiction and fiction set in the future. In the former, we have (in some cases) a good idea of what the attitudes were; in the latter case it’s only a guess. True, but first of all, attitudes were not universal, and, second, we can create characters to demonstrate the attitudes were incorrect. > [@](#): > > Science is very broad. If you’re writing a novel about James Clerk Maxwell, why would you bring up Marie Curie? If not her, you could create a woman who somehow was a crackerjack scientist in the next lab. For an example, I saw a movie about Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, called the Copyist I think. Beethoven asked a friend for his best music student to help him copy the score, and who turned up but a woman. Who he of course warms to (not romantically) and gives advice on composing. All of this good political correctness is somewhat reduced when, at the debut, he is too deaf to even keep time, and she has to prompt him to do it, crouched on the floor in her low cut dress. Like Madame Curie, she was hawt. In this version, she was the one who turned him around to see the applause. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/145 "2010-06-25T19:42:04Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Because she was hot? In the radioactive sense . . . “It’s the Curies! We must flee!” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/146 "2010-06-25T19:45:29Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Two posts after the OP, someone asked if you meant works set in the past, or works written in the past, and you responded ‘feel free to discuss either.’ I SAID I had participated in the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/147 "2010-06-25T19:50:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I SAID I had participated in the hijack. Well, it doesn’t seem like a hijack if someone asks the OP for clarification within the first couple of posts. Fine, though - if you want to consider half the thread a hijack, then I apologise from the bottom of my heart for posting on a topic you said was fine to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/148 "2010-06-25T19:52:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If not her, you could create a woman who somehow was a crackerjack scientist in the next lab. > . Except crackerjack woman scientists were not common back then. Curie was the exception, not the rule. Now, one may argue that she was the exception because of social norms rather than any innate incapacity of women to be scientists; and I, in fact, would agree. But including a crackerjack woman scientist in a period piece when women would not, in the west, have typically been doing science in any great numbers is presentism. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/149 "2010-06-25T19:55:10Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Well, it doesn’t seem like a hijack if someone asks the OP for clarification within the first couple of posts. Fine, though - if you want to consider half the thread a hijack, then I apologise from the bottom of my heart for posting on a topic you said was fine to discuss. I realize you’re being sarcastic, so I should drop it, but I am of course a dope. I honestly should have been more specific in the OP, and should not have okayed the inclusion of SF stories, because the topics only look similar. I will happily concede that any mistake made was mine. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/150 "2010-06-25T20:13:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except crackerjack woman scientists were not common back then. Curie was the exception, not the rule. Now, one may argue that she was the exception because of social norms rather than any innate incapacity of women to be scientists; and I, in fact, would agree. But including a crackerjack woman scientist in a period piece when women would not, in the west, have typically been doing science in any great numbers is presentism. Actually, there were quite a few women scientists - for some reason there were a fair few in palaeontology (like Mary Anning), biology’s always been a more women-friendly field, and, of course, there was Ada Lovelace; it wouldn’t be bizarre to meet a female scientist at almost any point in the past and definitely not once women were allowed to study at university. However, I agree in general - if you did include a female scientist in a period piece then it should be in a realistic way, making it clear that she’s unusual, that she’ll have to work harder than anyone else and still probably won’t get any credit, that she won’t really be treated as an equal by the men around her, etc. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I realize you’re being sarcastic, so I should drop it, but I am of course a dope. > > I honestly should have been more specific in the OP, and should not have okayed the inclusion of SF stories, because the topics only look similar. I will happily concede that any mistake made was mine. Well, they seem like very similar topics to me, but YMMV of course. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/151 "2010-06-25T20:36:17Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Well, they seem like very similar topics to me, but YMMV of course. Here’s the difference. The presence or absence of racism, sexism, and other bigotries in a historical context is a matter of verisimilitude warring with palatability. If we know that, say, the United States of circa 1870 was not filled with black men in positions of governmental authority, then casting Will Smith as a Federal agent in that time period, having no one think that’s odd, and having only the villain be racist, is jarring, because it’s not true to the period. But we don’t want to restrict minority and female characters to servile roles in period pieces, because we find that unpleasant to watch and a bad role model for the youngsters in the audience. But Trek and Heinlein and other SF stories set in the future are a different story. We don’t know at all what the 24th century will be like. It’s conceivable that the gender roles will be like they are today, or more egalitarian than they are now, or that one gender or the other will be dominant. It’s silly to say “The sexist attitudes of Star Trek are inaccurate to what the 23th century AD is really like,” because the 24th century AD doesn’t exist, and we simply don’t know. It’s pointless to pretend otherwise. Incidentally, here is the psot you referred to earlier. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Are we restricting this discussion just to modern works set in past, or works which were created in the past? > > Feel free to discuss either. I’ll happily admit that I should have written _Feel free to discuss either, as long as they are about actual historical periods_. Because, again, the tension between versimilitude and palatability cannot exist in stories set in an imaginary future. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901/152 "2010-06-25T23:50:25Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except crackerjack woman scientists were not common back then. Curie was the exception, not the rule. Now, one may argue that she was the exception because of social norms rather than any innate incapacity of women to be scientists; and I, in fact, would agree. But including a crackerjack woman scientist in a period piece when women would not, in the west, have typically been doing science in any great numbers is presentism. Oh, I agree. There seem to be a few options. 1. Writing it like it was, and ignoring women totally in the scientific context. 2. Writing it like it was, but have some women associated with the scientist who are clever about it, understand it, give suggestions, but aren’t actively doing research. This is distinguished from the “Little old me can’t understand this science stuff” kind of woman. 3. Only write about the few women who actually lived, like Marie Curie or the blessed Ada. 4. Be broader, and make up a woman for your story. (Now I look at it, there are all sorts of jokes hiding in that last sentence, but it is Friday afternoon and I don’t feel like rewriting it.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexism-racism-or-other-prejudices-bother-you-in-period-fiction/543901.md?page=7)