# Do sexual preferences make one a bigot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544 "2021-08-12T20:08:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/221 "2021-08-21T17:41:53Z")
The trope of the young man who’ll do anyone with a pulse no matter what the specifics is common in fiction and entertainment, but even there it is more often portrayed as a joke on the character, not as an universal absolute. Entertainment media also as mentioned tends to portray that as the young man wanting any _attractive_ person they run into (whatever the writer/director/producer chooses to portray as “attractive”), And the men who do not act up to the trope _owe **nobody** an explanation of “why”_ nor proof that they are a larger or smaller group of the population. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > It is all going to come down to the question of what you mean by a bigot. Does it mean treating all people the same in all relationships. Yep, several of us have touched on this at various points in the thread. I mean, is the proposition “everyone’s a bigot”, then? ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2021, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/222 "2021-08-22T03:45:31Z")
I think the biggest difference between non-professional interpersonal relationships and employment is that while every adult should have the right to earn a living (barring prison or severe enough disability), no one has any right to a sexual, romantic or any other kind of non-professional relationship with a person (except when it comes to some family type relationships, like parent-child). This is because of (intimate) bodily autonomy. Therefore, a person can refuse to have sex with someone for any reason or no reason, with one possible reason as finding some facial feature unappealing. An anallogy would be something like not liking strawberries. A person is not bigoted towards strawberry farmers for not buying strawberries if they simply don’t like them. It would be better for strawberry farmers if no one disliked strawberries as it would generally be better for ugly people that others wouldn’t find them too ugly to want to have sex with them (at least for free). Both may be unfortunate but neither are bigotry. If your sexual preferenes are _influenced_ in some way by bigotry like racism, working on become non-bigoted would be worthwhile, not because we care about some group getting more access to sex but because of the other harmful effects of racism. There are can be no immoral reasons to refuse sex since a person should _always_ be able to refuse it. So if being a bigot is immoral, sexual preferences cannot make one a bigot. There might be better and worse reasons for those sexual preferences but they are all valid reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/223 "2021-08-23T03:19:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > All those reasons have cropped up in my life and I’m sure any guy who has turned down sex, which would be 99.9 percent of all men, can think of a few more. I assure you, if you really cannot imagine turning down sex, you are the exception. A RARE exception. Fair enough, thanks for sharing. I can only remember one time in my life, and it was with my wife at the time because I was tired and annoyed that she came home way later than she said she would. But she kept bothering me until I just did it so she would shut up 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/224 "2021-09-02T18:30:09Z")
Right, you made _two_ points. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The two are not equivalent, for two reasons. > > 1. Because the right to refuse employment is _not_ absolute, the way the right to refuse consent is. > 2. Because there is an asymmetry to the employment example - IMO, the woman’s right to work trumps the man’s right to refuse work, because women are historically discriminated against in employment, whereas gynophiliacs have historically not even needed accommodation, so pervasive was patriarchy. So there’s a justice element to favouring the woman against the man, even if all other things were equally-balanced (and they are not equal, because, as noted, there _are_ accommodations possible for the male team leader, whereas the woman will be out of a job) Your two points, in my own words (based on posts #216-218): 1. The right to refuse to hire a person is _not_ absolute, the way the right to refuse consent is. 2. The _gynophobic_ man’s right to refuse to hire people is trumped by the woman’s right to be hired, because women are historically discriminated against in employment, whereas gynophobic men have historically not faced discrimination in the workplace due to male dominance of workplaces. Now, you’ve nearly convinced me that aesthetic sexual preferences are justified and therefore not necessarily bigoted. I only have two lingering concerns. A. While you are on very strong footing when it comes to acts of sex, I don’t think the right to refuse consent is so absolute the further removed you go. I wouldn’t say the right to refuse to go out to dinner is absolute like the right to refuse sex, it’s still pretty strong but not absolute. If you refuse to have date night at a place with Black people because Black people are a turn-off? That’s a _you_ problem and _you_ are the asshole. Moving further away from sex, the right to refuse to associate with a person in one’s social life because of mere sexual preferences is really really weak. It’s wrong to refuse to hang out with a Black person who wants to be your friend, just because you don’t find Black people sexually attractive. B. You may have read **Velocity** ’s linked article from post #2. The history of Black people in online dating obviously pales in comparison to the history of women in the workplace, but apparently there is discrimination there. Maybe thirty years from now there will be an established history of dating discrimination against Black people. Would that affect your opinion, or rather why wouldn’t it? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/225 "2021-09-02T20:54:47Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I wouldn’t say the right to refuse to go out to dinner is absolute like the right to refuse sex, it’s still pretty strong but not absolute I disagree. Strongly. The right to refuse romantic contact of even a non-directly-sexual nature is paramount (_even if_ it comes from a place of bigotry). Yes, you’re the asshole in that situation, but you are allowed to be the asshole. Others are free to comment on your assholishness, but they are not allowed to remove that choice from you. > [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s wrong to refuse to hang out with a Black person who wants to be your friend, just because you don’t find Black people sexually attractive. No argument there. But it’s wrong to refuse to hang out with anyone _as friends_ because you don’t find them sexually attractive, whether that be Blacks, short people, or busty blondes. Or weird and stupid, would be a different way of putting it without the overt moral slant. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Maybe thirty years from now there will be an established history of dating discrimination against Black people. Would that affect your opinion, or rather why wouldn’t it? Why should it, and why wait 30 years, the discrimination is already established to my satisfaction. That there is an explanation for the behaviour of _most_ people in no way invalidates the possible existence of purely aesthetic reasons. We know this because of all the other purely aesthetic concerns that _do_ come into play, like people turned off by tattoos or dyed hair or clothing choices. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/226 "2021-09-02T21:35:58Z")
> ( _even if_ it comes from a place of bigotry) It’s been a few days, but where I wrote “Black”, pretend I had written dark skin. My mistake there. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I disagree. Strongly. The right to refuse romantic contact of even a non-directly-sexual nature is paramount ( _even if_ it comes from a place of bigotry). > > Yes, you’re the asshole in that situation, but you are allowed to be the asshole. Others are free to comment on your assholishness, but they are not allowed to remove that choice from you. Perhaps I didn’t explain the scenario I had in mind well enough. I am imagining myself thinking dark skin is really unattractive, having a light-skinned date, and refusing to go to a restaurant with dark-skinned waiters/patrons because it will totally ruin the romantic vibe for me. Of course, I am absolutely the master of my own evening plans. The question is whether I am morally justified in exercising that right. If I am justified in changing my plans because I find dark skin aesthetically disgusting, that decision cannot be bigoted. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Why should it, and why wait 30 years, the discrimination is already established to my satisfaction. That there is an explanation for the behaviour of _most_ people in no way invalidates the possible existence of purely aesthetic reasons. We know this because of all the other purely aesthetic concerns that _do_ come into play, like people turned off by tattoos or dyed hair or clothing choices. Okay, so your point about the woman’s right to be hired in the workplace - while valid - is kind of a wash when it comes to discriminating against dark skin color in dating. Those two situations are similar when it comes to the historical disadvantage aspect. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/227 "2021-09-03T04:40:32Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Those two situations are similar when it comes to the historical disadvantage aspect. The point is that in one case the historic disadvantage outweighs the aesthetic choice (if you can call misogyny that) and in the other case, it does not, because of the different spheres of intimacy involved. I can be morally in the right overriding the misogynist in a way I can not with the skin colour bigot. And note that that applies too to a skin colour bigot in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/228 "2021-09-03T05:13:42Z")
the op is just like asking when does a sexual preference turn into a fetish… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/229 "2021-09-03T08:03:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > Why isn’t that necessarily bigotry? > > Because it could, theoretically, be pure aesthetics. Only if we’re talking some hypothetical alien world where the beings there have aesthetic opinions that are not created by culture In humans, on the other hand, that is not the case. Aesthetic preferences are almost entirely created by culture. If someone finds darker skin aesthetically unattractive, that is due to being part of a culture where that is taught or treated as the norm. I will again point to my own personal experience. I used to first thing I was not attracted to black women. Then I later thought that I was only attracted to lighter skinned black women. But, because I kept being exposed to attractive black women, that changed. If this was some pure aesthetic preference, not caused by my culture, this should not be possible. And I do not seem at all to be an outlier. When you look at people who seem to have these racial or color-based preferences, it very much seems like they are mostly not exposed to alternatives. Unlike with gender-based attraction, there does not seem to be any innate aspect to these aesthetic preferences. It is not something that can’t be changed. And apparently I need to argue what I’ve left unsaid before, based on other posts in this thread. If something is in fact motivated by racism, and we have the ability to overcome that, then there is a moral responsibility to do so. No, no individual person is entitled to have sex with any other individual. But if a person rejects people because of racism or colorism or any other form of bigotry, that is wrong. That is harmful, even without there being such an obligation. It’s not about that particular individual. This is, in fact, true if sexism is the issue. However, we know that sexism, whether individual or cultural, is not the overwhelming reason why someone has a gender-based sexual or romantic preference. There really is something innate. I’m all for saying that someone who is bisexual but rejects one sex due to sexism should fix this about themselves, but that just generally is not the case. The misogynist’s sexuality is so strong it tends to override their bigotry towards women when it comes to attraction. So bigotry is not generally the issue in this particular case. But this is the exception, not the rule. Bigotry is wrong at a fundamental level. There is no case of harmless bigotry. There is no such thing as harmless racism or harmless colorism or harmless sexism. We all have an ethical duty to remove the influence of these things our lives, and to push for a culture where such is not accepted. I do not agree with the idea that there is no great harm if people of a particular race is generally treated as less desirable as a sexual partner by another race or races. Hence my argument that, if you categorically reject a particular race or color of skin, there is a problem. It may be direct racism. Or it may be aesthetics informed by society’s racism. Either way, it’s still something we as a society should not want to promote. Our goal ultimately is to eliminate bigotry, after all. (You may say it will never entirely happen, but that’s always the case with things that are morally wrong. It doesn’t mean we don’t try to get as close as we can.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/230 "2021-09-03T08:53:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Only if we’re talking some hypothetical alien world where the beings there have aesthetic opinions that are not created by culture Humans are not _just_ the products of their culture, or we wouldn’t be individuals. > [@BigT](#): > > Aesthetic preferences are almost entirely created by culture. I disagree. Aesthetic preferences arise out of an interaction between culture and the individual psyche. > [@BigT](#): > > If someone finds darker skin aesthetically unattractive, that is due to being part of a culture where that is taught or treated as the norm. I acknowledge that that is almost always the case. But I believe that there _can_ be an individual aesthetics that finds darker skin unattractive, without the cultural baggage, just like all the other aesthetic preferences people have when it comes to sexual attractiveness. I mean, why prefer redheads? Or brunettes? Or freckles? Or _some_ kind of tattoos and not others? Those are appearance-based and yet not cultural norms. > [@BigT](#): > > I will again point to my own personal experience. Your personal experience is irrelevant for deciding what is _possible_. I didn’t say anything about _your_ skin colour preference being purely aesthetic. > [@BigT](#): > > It is not something that can’t be changed. That doesn’t mean it can’t be aesthetics. Aesthetics are developed, not innate. Newborn babies don’t cry if you put them in the wrong colour onesie. > [@BigT](#): > > If something is in fact motivated by racism, and we have the ability to overcome that, then there is a moral responsibility to do so. How, exactly, are you proposing we “overcome” a bigotry-based entrenched sexual preference? Other than indicating our own opposition to it in some form, I mean. > [@BigT](#): > > However, we know that sexism, whether individual or cultural, is not the overwhelming reason why someone has a gender-based sexual or romantic preference. There really is something innate. I’d argue that history argues exactly the opposite, that some elements of expressed sexual preference _are_ cultural, not innate. Man-boy love was a thing in more than one historic locale way beyond the degree of homosexuality we consider “innate”, for instance. And nobody develops a preference for lotus feet without cultural conditioning. > [@BigT](#): > > Bigotry is wrong at a fundamental level You’re preaching to the choir here. > [@BigT](#): > > There is no such thing as harmless racism or harmless colorism or harmless sexism.[…] > I do not agree with the idea that there is no great harm if people of a particular race is generally treated as less desirable as a sexual partner by another race or races. And I haven’t said there is. I don’t think you understand my argument, if you think I think there isn’t harm there. > [@BigT](#): > > Hence my argument that, if you categorically reject a particular race or color of skin, there is a problem. Sure, but it’s not one we can actually do anything direct about for the individual. We can’t force people to have romantic involvement against their will.All we can do is change society to make such bigotry untenable. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/231 "2021-09-03T09:51:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In humans, on the other hand, that is not the case. Aesthetic preferences are almost entirely created by culture. If someone finds darker skin aesthetically unattractive, that is due to being part of a culture where that is taught or treated as the norm. > > I will again point to my own personal experience. I used to first thing I was not attracted to black women. Then I later thought that I was only attracted to lighter skinned black women. But, because I kept being exposed to attractive black women, that changed. If this was some pure aesthetic preference, not caused by my culture, this should not be possible. > > And I do not seem at all to be an outlier. When you look at people who seem to have these racial or color-based preferences, it very much seems like they are mostly not exposed to alternatives. Unlike with gender-based attraction, there does not seem to be any innate aspect to these aesthetic preferences. It is not something that can’t be changed. That’s probably true to an extent. Although if it’s just about exposure, is that really racism? Probably it is if you’re talking about what is shown in the media, rather than who you meet in daily life. But there are some aspects that seem to be more universal across cultures, like the preference of women for taller men, and the common preference of men for women with lighter skin (or lighter hair in Caucasians). This explains why difficulties finding a date can vary between the sexes for people of the same race. And it can’t all be about culture anyway, since lots of people have preferences that don’t line up with the most common ones. What causes that? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/232 "2021-09-03T14:02:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The point is that in one case the historic disadvantage outweighs the aesthetic choice (if you can call misogyny that) and in the other case, it does not, because of the different spheres of intimacy involved. I can be morally in the right overriding the misogynist in a way I can not with the skin colour bigot. And note that that applies too to a skin colour bigot in the workplace. Okay, I get that. And when we’re talking about actual sex, I agree that a person has an absolute moral right to refuse. But in other situations I don’t think it’s moral to refuse a non-sexual or possibly less-sexual act on the basis of aesthetic preference alone. I’m not saying it’s more moral to force someone to act against their will, just that it is wrong to refuse in some situations where actual sex is not involved, on the sole basis of aesthetic preference for a certain skin color. I already gave this example, > I am imagining myself thinking dark skin is really unattractive, having a light-skinned date, and refusing to go to a restaurant with dark-skinned waiters/patrons because it will totally ruin the romantic vibe for me. A second example might be if a friend in distress wants to hug you, but they happen to have the wrong skin color. Yes, it is more wrong to hug you without your consent. But it is still very wrong for you to withhold that consent solely on the basis of skin color - you would not be justified and withholding consent in that case is bigoted. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/233 "2021-09-03T14:17:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > I am imagining myself thinking dark skin is really unattractive, having a light-skinned date, and refusing to go to a restaurant with dark-skinned waiters/patrons because it will totally ruin the romantic vibe for me. > > A second example might be if a friend in distress wants to hug you, but they happen to have the wrong skin color. Yes, it is more wrong to hug you without your consent. But it is still very wrong for you to withhold that consent solely on the basis of skin color - you would not be justified and withholding consent in that case is bigoted. Didn’t @MrDibble already say that the latter _is_ bigoted, but that nevertheless the state/society isn’t justified in overriding your preferences in the personal sphere the way it is with employment? And these examples seem awfully implausible. Are they meant to be analogous to refusing to go on a date in a gay bar because you’d find the PDAs off-putting, and not wanting to hug a gay friend? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/234 "2021-09-03T14:33:06Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > And when we’re talking about actual sex, I agree that a person has an absolute moral right to refuse. I didn’t say they had an absolute moral right, just that they had the right. Morality doesn’t come into it - their motivation could be moral or immoral, they still have a right of refusal. Having the right of refusal doesn’t confer any moral worth on the refusee. Their refusing is not in-and-of-itself a positive moral exercise. > [@Max\_S](#): > > But in other situations I don’t think it’s moral to refuse a non-sexual or possibly less-sexual act on the basis of aesthetic preference alone. I didn’t say it was moral. Merely a right. Freedom of intimate association is a fundamental human right, personal autonomy being the only one that even remotely surpasses it, IMO. You may never have been under a system that limited your specific freedom of intimate association. I’ve lived [under](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_20A) [a](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_of_Mixed_Marriages_Act,_1949) [couple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immorality_Act), and they were all abhorrent. Denying that right just because you judge a person immoral would be equally abhorrent to me. Even if that person is racist scum. > [@Max\_S](#): > > But it is still very wrong for you to withhold that consent solely on the basis of skin color Wrong, as in others can feel free to judge me for it, I have no quibble with. Wrong, as in I can be forced against my will, not a damn. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/235 "2021-09-03T14:33:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Didn’t @MrDibble already say that the latter _is_ bigoted I don’t believe so. Our recent debate has been whether sexual preferences on skin color are necessarily bigoted. I have admitted that in the case of actual sex acts, preference for skin color is not necessarily bigoted. But **MrDibble** and I are now, I think, trying to convince me that there are other contexts where preference for skin color is not necessarily bigoted. > [@DemonTree](#): > > And these examples seem awfully implausible. Admittedly, but so is a person whose sexual preference for certain skin colors isn’t plain bigotry. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/236 "2021-09-03T14:40:35Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > so is a person whose sexual preference for certain skin colors isn’t plain bigotry. _I_ have a personal preference for certain specific skin tones, and it is in no way grounded in bigotry. Nothing implausible about it. Granted, they are at various extremes of the range of possible tones, but they exclude others. I haven’t mentioned this in the discussion about aesthetics because a) I didn’t want to personalize it; and b) _very_ dark brown is one the tones I _like_, so didn’t match the hypothetical (The others are bronzed and pale+freckles) but it did inform my opinion on aesthetics and does speak to the plausibility of having purely aesthetic preferences, so I think it worth mentioning now. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/237 "2021-09-03T14:42:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Admittedly, but so is a person whose sexual preference for certain skin colors isn’t plain bigotry. I don’t see that at all. Many people have preferences for certain hair colours (I do myself), or different features within people of the same race, and that obviously isn’t due to bigotry. It’s probable that some skin colour preferences _are_ caused by bigotry, or to your amount of exposure to people with different skin colours, which could be related to societal bigotry, but it’s not inevitable that that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/238 "2021-09-03T14:58:27Z")
Say what you will, if someone says they prefer pale skin to the exclusion of all other colors, that’s a big red flag. Maybe the situation is different in South Africa or Great Britain. ETA: > [@MrDibble](#): > > **Note** : I’m _not_ arguing that a preference against dark skin _isn’t_ bigotry. I believe in most any real-world instance, it very much is. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/239 "2021-09-03T15:07:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t say they had an absolute moral right, just that they had the right. Morality doesn’t come into it - their motivation could be moral or immoral, they still have a right of refusal. Having the right of refusal doesn’t confer any moral worth on the refusee. Their refusing is not in-and-of-itself a positive moral exercise. […] I didn’t say it was moral. Merely a right. […] Wrong, as in others can feel free to judge me for it, I have no quibble with. I had thought we were talking about moral rights all along, since at least this: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Women have a **right** (both explicit, and **moral** ) to employment same as men, but I do not have a right to sleep with/be intimate with any person of my choosing. If a person’s skin color aesthetic preference is _immoral_, if not morally justified, then that satisfies the ‘unjustified’ criteria for bigotry. The people who judge such a preference will say it is bigoted. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544/240 "2021-09-03T15:08:01Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Say what you will, if someone says they prefer pale skin to the exclusion of all other colors, that’s a big red flag. Maybe the situation is different in South Africa or Great Britain. No, no different. But the question we’ve been addressing, I thought, was not “is having a skin colour preference _a strong indication of_ bigotry”, it’s “is having a skin colour preference _necessarily_ bigotry”. And the answer there is “No”. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I had thought we were talking about moral rights all along, since at least this: I was only making the moral right argument for the right of women to employment. I added the moral part there for emphasis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-sexual-preferences-make-one-a-bigot/948544.md?page=13)