# Do shirts and ties discriminate against men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211 "2003-02-24T18:56:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/41 "2003-02-25T23:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnT \* > \*\*Imho, the civil-service guy in the OP should be taken out and beaten senseless for being such a whiny, wimpy putz. Well, not really. But I do hope his pay gets docked the full 10% before he gets dismissed. > > You know, there used to be a time when men were men. Now we’re throwing lawsuits about because of clothing accessories. I mean, here’s a guy who is suing, not because of a medical condition that would prevent him from following the code, but because he wants to use the 4-year olds dictate of “I don’t wanna! It’s not fair. WAAAAAHHHHHH!!!” > > God, crap like this makes me want to puke. \*\* I hope I never have to work for someone like this. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/42 "2003-02-26T05:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*From a post by Ethilrist \* > \*\*It’s not sexist if women are required to wear the female equivalent to suit-and-tie. > \*\* And let’s bear in mind the times when females have been required to be more dressed up then males. When I was growing up, girls were forced to wear dresses or skirts to school every single day for their whole time in school. To make the boys suffer equally, they should have been made to wear ties, at the very least; maybe jackets and ties. They weren’t. They could just wear slacks and sport shirts. The only restriction they faced was the very, very trivial one of not being allowed to wear jeans. They could, however, wear any and alll slacks that were not made of blue denim. Jeans were not really particularly fashionable then. I would have been perfectly content to wear _any_kind of slacks. Restricions re fabic and color would not have mattered. I absolutely _hated_dresses and skirts. I still do. Haven’t worn such since the early '70s. Thank God things changed! ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/43 "2003-02-26T16:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by brad\_d \* > \*\*I guess my shirts fit - my ties don’t bother me. 😉 I get tired of hearing other men bitch about them, frankly. > > That said, I think this guy, whiny though he may be, has a case here 'cause of the (apparent) gender bias in the dress code. \*\* Same here. I wear suits and ties when visiting/meeting for business purposes. Otherwise, I’m in slacks, a white dress shirt, and I keep a navy sports coat and neutral tie around ‘just in case’. I make sure the necks on my shirts are comfortable and when I tie my tie (full windsor), I don’t choke myself with it. I find turtlenecks to be more restricting. I liked suits because they were easy. All of my suits are in neutral colors (black, gray and navy), 90% of my shirts are white. Nearly every tie in my closet goes with any suit I choose, I barely have to look. When I want a little color (blue, yellow, pink or striped shirt), then I need to pay more attention. Also, and this is very important, it is what is expected by prospective clients. It doesn’t matter how the client dresses, they expect me to be a business professional, and regardless of my work, they will form an impression on my look. So until there is worldwide, widespread acceptance of a more casual look, I will continue to dress in a business-like manner, and hope all my competitors don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/44 "2003-02-26T18:10:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > \*\* They weren’t. They could just wear slacks and sport shirts. The only restriction they faced was the very, very trivial one of not being allowed to wear jeans. They could, however, wear any and alll slacks that were not made of blue denim. \*\* I know it’s just me, but I don’t think that’s so trivial. A couple of features that I like about jeans is that the pockets tend to be higher cut, so you can put your keys, change, etc. in them and not have them fall out when you sit down, especially in a car. Then there are the back pockets. I find it more comfortable to carry my wallet there; I’ve found if I do that with slacks, a little tear soon develops at the edge of the pocket. So the wallet has to go in my hip pocket with everything else, and it gets a little uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/45 "2003-02-26T22:13:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\ ***Susanann** it’s not all about the US you know 🙂 The story in the OP is British and they have had a fine tradition of some males and no women having the vote. \*\* I know, but I am not familiar with womens sufferage in the UK. I responded in the only way I knew. I only wanted to correct the myth about women not being able to vote in the United States for a long standing time period. In America, men gave women the right to vote pretty quickly after the men got it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/46 "2003-02-26T22:18:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > \*\*And let’s bear in mind the times when females have been required to be more dressed up then males. When I was growing up, girls were forced to wear dresses or skirts to school every single day for their whole time in school. > \*\* Being forced to wear skirts and dresses every day, regardless of how cold it is, or how high the snow is, is a more a more valid complaint, and has more merit. After 150 years, I seriously doubt that mens fashion will EVER change again!! Better get used to wearing a shirt, pants, coat and tie if you are a male. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/47 "2003-02-27T16:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*One of my main disincentives to running for Parliament is that male MPs must wear ties…! \*\* Does it say where? I think of the ESPN commercial where someone is wearing one as a headband. Of course, a less dignified person than Matt, with less gravitas, in a less conservative environment, to a man he considered attractive, might say “I have a bow tie around something. Want to find it?”:eek: Many (not all) dress codes, IMO, are stupid. They should at least be stupid on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/48 "2003-02-27T20:16:04Z")
the answer to all of these problems? a unisex uniform. like Mc Donalds, or some such. lovely. or possible colour-coded hospital scrubs. comfy and practical. AFAIK the only reason for a tie is to display membership of a club or regiment or to display the old school/college colours. which is only pertinent if the business works on the old boy’s network. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/49 "2003-02-28T04:20:37Z")
In the following quote, javaman is replying to my comment that the only restriction on boys’ school clothes when I was a kid was that they couldn’t wear jeans (and this was before jeans became popular). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\*I know it’s just me, but I don’t think that’s so trivial. A couple of features that I like about jeans is that the pockets tend to be higher cut, so you can put your keys, change, etc. in them and not have them fall out when you sit down, especially in a car. Then there are the back pockets. I find it more comfortable to carry my wallet there; I’ve found if I do that with slacks, a little tear soon develops at the edge of the pocket. So the wallet has to go in my hip pocket with everything else, and it gets a little uncomfortable. \*\* But javaman, they could wear pants that were_exactly like jeans_ – so long as they were not made of blue denim. They could wear tan or khaki pants that had all the features you describe. And I think there is a big difference between (a) being allowed to wear slacks so long as they were not made of blue denim and (b) not being allowed to wear any slacks at all, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Jonno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f19dbf/32.png) [@Jonno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonno)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/50 "2003-02-28T08:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*Better get used to wearing a shirt, pants, coat and tie if you are a male. \*\* And get used to wearing pantyhose and high heels if you are a woman doing the same job. One double standard is as ugly as the other. ---
**Author:** ![mrsface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@mrsface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsface)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/51 "2003-02-28T14:06:16Z")
As a woman, I’d back this guy provided he can demonstrate that the women’s dress code really is more liberal. More generally, what right have employers or anyone else to dictate what people wear? The only ‘rule’ that makes sense is that (a) your clothes should not stink and (b) should not be so visually distracting that they interfere with others’ work. Anything else is convention, and conventions only last as long as the majority submit to them. I’m amazed at how meekly we all collude with employers’ arbitrary dress codes. There are obvious exceptions - uniforms for police, nurses etc who need to be readily identifiable - but that’s it. Employers buy a share of your abilities and your time, not your personal taste. Up the workers (!) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/52 "2003-02-28T15:43:51Z")
**mrsface** , while I can’t speak for the way things work in Old Europe, failure to comply with suitable dress codes (i.e. don’t madate 4 inch spike heels for women, just ‘dress shoes’) would get one tossed on one’s arse around my places of employment, past and present. Why not? Don’t want to wear a tie? There are 10 guys with similar if not better qualifications just outside the door trying to get in. While I can rely on a certain degree of inertia to keep me in place, creating dress code headaches (as long as the dress code is reasonable for one’s place of work) will put me on the short list to be moved out the door. ---
**Author:** ![mrsface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@mrsface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrsface)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/53 "2003-02-28T15:53:56Z")
D-Odds, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I’m questioning why it happens. I just don’t see why clothes, male or female, have any relevance to doing a good job. If I’d wanted to be hired for my looks, not by brain/skills, I’d have become a model. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/54 "2003-02-28T16:47:59Z")
Keep in mind, mrsface, that lots of positions, as part of their jobs, have to ‘impress’ some customer, be it internal or external. If the customer is external, then the dress code has a purpose: if your appearance seems sloppy/unqualified/unreliable, you might cost the company clients and therefore money. Even internally, you could hurt your chances of getting favors or concessions from the beaurocracy above you. ---
**Author:** ![Ico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/91b2a8/32.png) [@Ico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ico)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211/55 "2003-03-12T01:51:06Z")
As expected, the whiney man [won his case.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2840013.stm) …just goes to show that you can end up getting your own way if you complain all the time… i wonder what he’ll find fault with next 😃 Seriously though, its clear he did have a case if females were allowed to wear such casual clothes as football shirts. That just aint fair. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-shirts-and-ties-discriminate-against-men/157211.md?page=2)