Do socialist politics have a future in the United States?

To get back to the OP,

I think the socialists could get back into the limelight by coming together and backing a Socialist idea that seems reasonable to most people. Americans get mighty skeptical when someone says “Hey, give up some of your freedom in return for …” Especially since the Progressive reforms of last century coupled with capitalism’s economic and technological efficiency have made the life of “poor people” nowadays much MUCH better than the poor of 100 or 200 years ago.

I can’t think of too many topics that get people thinking that socialism is a good answer. Health care always comes up, but usually because of spiralling health costs, not from poor people dying in the street. Also predictions of environmental cataclysms seem to come true as often as predictions of Jesus’s return, so that fails to rile people up for Big Change too…

-k

Re: OP.

In my opinion the US model for funding of political parties, and campaigns looks like one of the major reasons.

In the words of the Wikipedia.

I’m not trying to make the Wikipedia the ultimate authority on truth here, but it nicely sums up my thoughts on the issue.

Here in Sweden, funds are allocated to political parties by the state, in proportion to their support with the voters in the latest elections. Although I’m not one hundred percent sure, I do believe that other contributions to political parties are illegal.

Again, simple opposition to the war can’t be cited as the main reason why the Socialist Party faded into obscurity. Debs spoke out against the war and continued to get quite a large number of votes in the next couple presidential elections. So there’s probably a lot more to the matter of their demise than simple opposition to a brutal war.

And they’re doing the same exact thing their French and German predecessors did in 1914. And making the same exact mistake. Furthermore, on what are you basing your assertion about Trotsky? The fact that he headed up the Red Army during the Russian Civil War? You need to remember that 14 armies, including that of the United States, invaded Russia to crush the revolution. Trotsky wasn’t spearheading the effort to spread the revolution, he was spearheading the effort to defend it. In that case, military aggression is highly justified. As far as the invasion of Poland in 1920 is concerned, IIRC Trotsky opposed the venture from the beginning but got outvoted in the Central Committee. Afterwards even Lenin admitted it was a mistake and the CentCom came to the conclusion that military aggression isn’t justified as a means of spreading revolution. A conclusion I strongly agree with, I might add.

This isn’t anything new.

Kautsky was considered the political heir of Marx. Bernstein was also considered Marx’ successor although he publicly disavowed much of Marx’ thought. Obviously, being a political heir doesn’t mean much.

Considering the strong turnout in demonstrations over last fall and winter, I’d say the anti-war message had a lot more public appeal than you give it credit for.

Sez you. If you’ve never been involved in a party that considers itself revolutionary Marxist, then don’t pretend to speak for us regarding our politics and our goals.

Perhaps my early-Soviet history is a bit confused. I thought Trotsky was the leader dedicated to “permanent revolution,” meaning that Bolshevism should expand its sway westward, and Stalin was the proponent of “socialism in one country,” that is, isolationism.

But, look, is it not true that, in Marxist theory, the revolution will result automatically from impersonal socioeconomic forces, and thus requires no revolutionary political movement to act as its midwife?

You misunderstand the concept of “permanent revolution”, though you are correct about Stalin. Here’s the relevant quote from Trotsky’s Permanent Revolutionj:

You’ll note that permanent revolution has nothing to do with forcing the revolution onto other countries on the tips of bayonets (which Stalin certainly accomplished) but rather is a theory on how the questions of democracy and national liberation in colonies and former colonies can be adequately settled.

No, no, a thousand times no! A quick look at the Communist Manifesto reveals a quote which sums it up quite tidily:

(Preface to the English edition of 1888)
“The act of the working class itself” - the revolution must be the conscious act of an entire class, not the automatic product of forces whose very existence is predicated on human society. A conscious act of social transformation requires organization, which in turn requires politics to guide it and a movement to express those politics. A movement is vitally necessary to bring about a revolution.

Very well, Olentzero. Socialism depends on the development of a poltical self-consciousness in the working class. Applying this to the subject of this thread, socialist politics in the United States: How broadly do you define the “working class” in the American context? Is it only manual/menial laborers, or does it include everybody who lacks independent means and has to work for a living? Or something in between? And, how developed do you think our working class’s consciousness is, compared with those of other developed countries? And what prospects do you see for the development of its consciousness over the next 5 or 10 years? And, when the time comes, what exactly is the working class supposed to do? Vote a socialist party into power, or march into their workplaces and announce they’re now in control, or what?

The working class is everybody who lacks independent means and has to work for a living. That includes much of what most people view as the “middle class”.

There are great prospects opening up for socialist politics over the next decade or so. Bush’s program of building and throwing bombs to ensure the US remains unchallenged while taking money from social programs to pay for it, coupled with Ashcroft’s and Rumsfeld’s obvious disdain for civil rights, is alienating a lot of people. The close “race” for the Presidency in 2000, alongside the abstention of close to 50% of the voting populace in that election, clearly shows that people are just as disaffected with the Democrats as they are with the Republicans.

Clearly there’s a wide opening for alternative politics. Granted it’s not automatic that people are going to flock to socialist politics - my experience on paper sales and other activities the ISO is involved in shows that people need to be convinced that something can be done. So right now it’s an open game for any and all political tendencies outside the mainstream, both to the left and the right. The key lies in getting the word out now - the sooner an organization begins trying to become a pole of political attraction, the better off they’re going to be when the next real crisis (political, economic, or social) hits and greater numbers of people are looking for answers.

Revolutions don’t happen in a day, either. The workers in Russia were taking revolutionary steps by themselves for most of 1917, after the tsar abdicated. They struck, agitated, and formed committees to take over the factories and organize production and distribution according to their interests throughout the summer and fall of that year. The October Revolution was merely the political confirmation of what was rapidly becoming social fact in Russia.

But I get the feeling that life for someone in 1917 Russia was a lot more desperate than a modern American who can’t afford private health insurance.

The Russian peasant had a good reason to take over the factory and distribute the profits among themselves. Kill the Tsar, stop WWI.

I don’t see poor Americans revolting to get off their inefficient goverment program like Medicaid and into a national healthcare system that everyone has to be on. Depose the democrats and republicans and stop Iraq II, which is killing thousands of Americans every day. Well, hundreds. Maybe less. One or two every other day.

What’s the issue that socialism can solve?

-k

You’ve named a couple right there. The fact that millions of people in the US can’t afford decent health care. The fact that the two major political parties running the country think that going to war and killing the women and children of the Enemy of the Week is somehow going to make the country safer. The fact that they slash what social spending there still is to ribbons in order to pay for it.

Socialism isn’t just an answer to US domestic issues. It’s an answer to world issues.

Can we have socialism, then, without a world state?

Well, what is a state? Two quotes - one from Engels, one from Lenin - illustrate the concept quite nicely.

Engels, in Origin of Family, Private Property, and the State:

Lenin, in State and Revolution:

Given that socialism’s goal is the creation of a classless society, where everyone benefits from the work of all but is required to work in order to enjoy those benefits, and the planning of said work becomes the decision of society as a whole rather than the “captains of industry” and their elected representatives, there can be no question of a “world state” under socialism.

To put a finer point on it, yes, at the very beginning there will need to be a workers’ state, in which the working class forcibly re-organizes society towards its own interests against the interests of the displaced capitalist class, which will fight tooth and nail to reclaim what it has lost. But if the working class is organized and militant enough (which it should be if it’s able to make a revolution in the first place) then there will come a point where the remnants of the capitalist class recognize there is no point in fighting any further and give up. At that point the task of building a classless society can begin and the workers’ state, which exists only to defend the interests of the working class against the capitalist class, can be dismantled, or “wither away” as Marx and Lenin both put it.

Perhaps you misunderstood my question, Olentzero. What I meant was, how do we get there from here? What is the order of the steps? Because if a “world state” is one of the steps – then no matter where you put it, it makes the whole project just about impossible. You have said it is impossible to build real socialism in one country. This implies only a world state, or a world revolution, can bring it off. But a world state is a dim and distant possibility, much more so than leftist revolution in any one country. At present, there is NO internationalist movement of any importance in any country on earth. Most people fear the very idea of a world state (if they think about it at all) even more than they fear the idea of socialism.

Now, what does this mean for a socialist who is trying to accomplish something real and concrete in his or her own country – the United States, for instance? Given the history of “socialist” states in the 20th century, it will be hard enough to convince people that the idea still has some value. But if we recast the message as: “Well, first we put together a socialist world state. THEN you’ll see how well socialism works! And then the state will wither away, but we’ll still have socialism!” That forrmulation doesn’t make the message any easier to sell, does it? It just requires the people to take too many things on faith. And selling the message is essential – if socialism really does depend on the working class developing a certain kind of political self-consciousness.

Digression: Olentzero, I notice that when explaining your ideas you usually speak of “the working class,” not “the proletariat,” and “the capitalist class,” not “the bourgeoisie.” Does this mean that old Marxist class-categories such as “proletariat,” “bourgeoisie” and “petit bourgeoisie” have passed out of modern socialist discource? I ask because it seems to me your definition of “working class” includes persons who are “petit bourgeois” in the old sense of the term – that is, professionals and whitecollars and low-to-mid-level executives who still depend on paychecks signed by somebody else. And where do small-business owners fit in?
Are they “working class” or “capitalist class”? They own their own productive property, but few of them are really rich or financially independent.

Yeah, that’s one of the biggest problems I have with Marxism, the labelling of people and the assumption of class stasis for the individual. When I was working my way through college I did manual labor… working class. Right out of college and doing unpleasent menial tasks in my chosen career… working class?
Now I’m a professional with people under me… petit bourgeois? Will I be bourgeios when I get enough in 401k to retire on? A capitalist because I’m now living on hard-earned money in my old age instead of relying on my children? These Marxists think it’s okay to confiscate my money then. That’s when I’ll need it most! What’s with these people?

-k

I just started a new GD thread: “How many social classes are there in the United States?” Anyone interested in this thread might also be interested in that one.

Some well thought out and important questions BrainGlutton. I look forward to hearing Olentzero’s response.

Only too glad to oblige, Grim. It would be nice if working for a living weren’t a necessity so that I could devote more of my time to this debate - then again, if that were true we probably wouldn’t be having this debate in the first place.

You misunderstand the nature of real social change. The revolution isn’t a recipe to be followed or an algebraic equation to be solved - we can’t sit here now and say “If x number of workers strike at y number of factories for z amount of time, then the conditions for socialism will be the most opportune”.

The only thing implied is that socialist must be a world-wide system. The steps to achieving socialism will not be the exact same for every country on earth. A workers’ state will certainly be necessary for the first few countries that stage a socialist revolution, especially if these countries are the most economically advanced, where the capitalist class (or “bourgeoisie”, if you like) is the strongest and most likely to crush the revolution at its inception. But that does not mean a workers’ state will be necessary in every country. If, for example, the US and Europe - let’s throw in Australia for good measure - have socialist revolutions and successfully establish workers’ states, the economic and social power those countries wield will have a decisive influence on Asia and Africa. The bourgeoisie of those countries are certainly in no position to try to push through a successful counter-revolution. The fight against them won’t be as pitched a battle, and consequently the necessity of a workers’ state for those countries will be reduced.

Then we’d best get to work building one, shouldn’t we?

And what’s responsible for that? Some innate human response, or opinions based on the ideas and arguments most working people get through the (at least in the US) corporate-run media?

That’s where we have to work hard to argue that those states weren’t, and aren’t, socialist. Not just on some abstract “true Scotsman” basis but based on a critical examination of Marx’, Engels’, and Lenin’s writings and an even more critical comparison of those countries’ social and political dynamics with the revolutionary socialist framework just described.

The majority of people certainly aren’t going to be convinced by socialist arguments alone. Their experiences at their jobs and in their daily lives is also vitally necessary. They have to be convinced by their own experiences that an alternative is necessary, and then they need to be argued with that socialism is the alternative they’re looking for. Their experiences in organizing and fighting for socialism will show them how it needs to be done, not just quoting from Marx and Lenin. And, ultimately, it will be their actions - not the actions of a socialist party - that will usher in the revolutionary changes needed to establish socialism in the first place. Socialism cannot be brought about from on high with vague “wait and see” promises from a revolutionary organization. It must be brought about by the actions of masses of people who have been convinced, again by their own experiences, that socialism is necessary and who have learned by their own experiences which is the correct way to fight for it. The Bolsheviks assuming political power is, as I’ve said before, merely the political confirmation of the social changes the working class has already started to put into motion, and they’ve been convinced by their own experiences that this political action is the best way to preserve and defend those changes.

Absolutely not. They may sound a little more academic and old-fashioned, but they’re still perfectly legitimate terms.

As I understand it, “petit bourgeois” has been distorted by later economists and philosophers from Marx’ original definition, which was the small business owner and independent merchant - i.e. those who didn’t depend on another’s paycheck to survive but whose positions in the market were on the bottom rung, closer to the workers than the bourgeois, and who would be thrown into the ranks of the working class when economic crises hit and their businesses went under.

Thanks, Olentzero. I invite you to look into the thread I’ve just started, “How many social classes are there in the United States?” I’m sure you could make valuable contributions to the discussion.

Here’s the link to the other thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=3570525#post3570525

I hope. I’ve never tried to imbed an intra-board link before.

Trust the government? Isn’t that like asking a mother of three boys aged 5-10 to trust NAMBLA?

I’m copying some text I posted in my other thread, “How many social classes are there in the United States?” This is appropriate to this thread as socialism is, well, practically the only political ideology that focuses on the existence of social classes as a problem to be solved, and aims at a “classless society.” Before we try to get there from here we need a clear picture of where “here” is. The following are not Marxist analyses although the authors undoubtedly are familiar with the teachings of Marx.

First, from from Class: A Guide to the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (New York: Summit Books, 1983), pp. 27-50:

quote:

My researches have persuaded me that there are nine classes in this country, as follows:

Top out-of-sight
Upper
Upper middle

Middle
High proletarian
Mid-proletarian
Low proletarian

Destitute
Bottom out-of-sight

One thing to get clear at the outset is this: it’s not riches alone that define these clases. . . . “Economically, no doubt, there are only two classes, the rich and the poor,” says George Orwell, “but socially there is a whole hierarchy of classes, and the manners and traditions learned by each class in childhood are not only very different but – this is the essential point – generally persist from birth to death. . . . It is . . . very difficult to escape, culturally, from the class into which you have been born.” When John Fitzgerald Kennedy, watching Richard Nixon on television, turned to his friends and, horror-struck, said, “The guy has no class,” he was not talking about money.


Not that the three classes at the top don’t have money. The point is that money alone doesn’t define them, for the way they have their money is largely what matters. . . . The main thing distinguishing the top three classes from each other is the amount of money inherited in relation to the amount currently earned. The top-out-of-sight class (Rockefellers, Pres, DuPonts, Mellons, Fords, Vanderbilts) lives on inherited capital entirely. . . .

“When I think of a really rich man,” says a Boston blue-collar, “I think of one of those estates where you can’t see the house from the road.” Hence the name of the top class, which could just as well be called “the class in hiding.” Their houses are never seen from the street or road. They like to hide away deep in the hills or way off on Greek or Caribbean islands (which they tend to own), safe, for the moment, from envy and its ultimate attendants, confiscatory taxation and finally expropriation. . . .


The next class down, the upper class, differs from the top-out-of-sight class in two main ways. First, although it inherits a lot of its money, it earns quite a bit too, usually from some attractive, if slight, work, without which it would feel bored and even ashamed. It’s likely to make its money by controlling banks and the more historic corporations, think tanks, and foundations, and to busy itself with things like the older universities, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Foreign Policy Association, the Committee for Economic Development, and the like, together with the executive branch of the federal government, and often the Senate. . . . And secondly, unlike the top-out-of-sights, the upper class is visible, often ostentatiously so. . . . When you pass a house with a would-be impressive facade visible from the street or highway, you know it’s occupied by a member of the upper class. . . .


Like all classes, the upper class has its distinct stigmata. It will be in the Social Register, whereas the mere upper-middle class will not, although it will slaver to get in. . . . Speaking French fluently, even though French is irrelevant to one’s actual life, business, interests, and the like, is an upper-class sign, although it’s important not to speak it with anything resembling a correct, or “French,” accent.


We now come to the upper-middle class. It may possess virtually as much as the two classes above it. The difference is that it has earned most of it, in law, medicine, oil, shipping, real estate, or even the more honorific kinds of trade, like buying and selling works of art. Although they may enjoy some inherited money and use inherited “things” (silver, Oriental rugs), the upper-middles suffer from a bourgeois sense of shame, a conviction that to live on the earnings of others, even forebears, is not nice.

Caste marks of the upper-middles would include living in a house with more rooms than you need, except perhaps when a lot of “overnight guests” are present to help you imitate upper-class style. . . . This class is also the most “role-reversed” of all: men think nothing of cooking and doing housework, women of working out of the house in journalism, theater, or real estate. (If the wife stays home all the time, the family’s middle-class only.) Upper-middles like to show off their costly educations by naming their cats Spinoza, Clytemnestra, and Candide, which means, as you’ll have inferred already, that it’s in large part the class depicted by Lisa Birnbach and others’ Official Preppy Handbook, that significantly popular artifact of 1980.

. . . Indeed, most people of the middle class and below would rather be in the upper-middle class than even the upper or the top out-of-sight. . . . Being in the upper-middle class is a familiar and credible fantasy: its usages, while slightly grander than one’s own, are recognizable and compassable, whereas in the higher classes you might be embarassed by not knowing how to eat caviar or use a finger bowl or discourse in French. It’s a rare American who doesn’t secretly want to be upper-middle class.


. . . The middle class is distinguishable more by its earnestness and psychic insecurity than by its middle income. I have known some very rich people who remain stubbornly middle-class, which is to say they remain terrified at what others think of them, and to avoid criticism are obsessed with doing everything right. . . .

“Status panic”: that’s the affliction of the middle class, according to C. Wright Mills, author of White Collar (1951) and The Power Elite (1956). Hence the middles’ need to accumulate credit cards and take in The New Yorker, which it imagines registers upper-middle taste. . . .

If the audience for that sort of thing used to seem the most deeply rooted in time and place, today it seems the class that’s the most rootless. Members of the middle class are not only the sort of people who buy their own heirlooms, silver, etc. They’re also the people who do most of the moving long-distance (generally to very unstylish places), commanded every few years to pull up stakes by the corporations they’re in bondage to. They are the geologist employed by the oil company, the computer programmer, the aeronautical engineer, the salesman assigned to a new territory, and the “marketing” (formerly sales) manager deputed to keep an eye on him. . . . IBM and DuPont hire these people from second-rate colleges and teach them that they are nothing if not members of the team. Virtually no latitude is permitted to individuality or the milder forms of eccentricity, and these employees soon learn to avoid all ideological statements. . . . Terrified of losing their jobs, these people grow passive, their humanity diminished as they perceive themselves mere parts of an infinitely larger structure. Interchangeable parts, too. “The training makes our men interchangeable,” an IBM executive was once heard to say.


. . . Oddity, introversion, and love of privacy are the big enemies, a total reversal of the values of the secure upper orders. Among the middles there’s a convention that erecting a fence or even a tall hedge is an affront. And there’s also a convention that you may drop in on neighbors and friends without a telephone inquiry first. . . .


Because he is essentially a salesman, the middle-class man develops a salesman’s style. Hence his optimism and his belief in the likelihood of self-improvement if you’ll just hurl yourself into it. . . . A final stigma of the middle class, an emanation of its social insecurity, is its habit of laughing at its own jests. Not entirely certain what social effect he’s transmitting, and yet obliged, by his role as “salesman,” to promote goodwill and optimism, your middle-class man serves as his own enraptured audience. . . .


. . . Proceeding downward, we would normally expect to meet next the lower-middle class. But it doesn’t exist as such any longer, having been pauperized by the inflation of the 1960s and 1970s and transformed into the high-proletarian class. What’s the difference? A further lack of freedom and self-respect. Our former lower-middle class, the new high proles, now head “the masses,” and even if they are positioned at the top of the proletarian classes, still they are identifiable as people things are done to. They are in bondage – to monetary policy, rip-off advertising, crazes and delusions, mass low culture, fast food, consumer schlock. Back in the 1940s there was still a real lower-middle class in this country, whose solid high-school education and addiction to “saving” and “planning” maintained it in a position – often precarious, to be sure – above the working class. . . . These former low-white-collar people are now simply working machines, and the wife usually works as well as the husband.

The kind of work performed and the sort of anxiety that besets one as a result of work are ways to divide the working class into its three strata. The high proles are the skilled workers, crafstmen, like printers. The mid-proles are operators, like Ralph Kramden, the bus driver. The low proles are unskilled labor, like longshoremen. The special anxiety of high proles is fear about loss or reduction of status: you’re proud to be a master carpenter, and you want the world to understand clearly the difference between you and a laborer. The special anxiety of the mid-proles is fear of losing the job. And of the low proles, the gnawing perception that you’re probably never going to make enough or earn enough freedom to have and do the things you want.


But high proles are quite smart, or at least shrewd. Because often their work is not closely supervised, they have pride and a conviction of independence, and they feel some contempt for those who have not made it as far as they have. The are, as the sociologist E. E. LeMasters calls them and titles his book, Blue-Collar Aristocrats (1975), and their disdain for the middle class is like the aristocrat’s from the other direction. . . . Like other aristocrats, says LeMasters, these “have gone to the top of their social world and need not expend time or energy on ‘social climbing.’” . . .

Since they’re not consumed with worry about choosing the correct status emblems, these people can be remarkably relaxed and unself-conscious. They can do, say, wear, and look like pretty much anything they want without undue feelings of shame, which belong to their betters, the middle class, shame being largely a bourgeois feeling. . . .


High proles are nice. It’s down among the mid- and low proles that features some might find offensive begin to show themselves. These are people who feel bitter about their work, often because they are closely supervised and regulated and generally treated like wayward children. . . . Andrew Levinson, author of The Working-Class Majority (1974), invites us to imagine what it would be like to be under the constant eye of a foreman, “a figure who has absolutely no counterpart in middle-class society. Salaried professionals often do have people above them, but it is impossible to imagine professors or executives being required to bring a doctor’s note if they are absent a day or having to justify the number of trips they take to the bathroom.” . . .

The degree of supervision, indeed, is often a more eloquent class indicator than mere income, which suggests that the whole class system is more a recognition of the value of freedom than a proclamation of the value of sheer cash. . . . One is a mid- or low prole if one’s servitude is constantly emphasized. Occupational class depends largely on doing work for which the consquences of error or failure are distant or remote, or better, invisible, rather than immediately apparent to a superior and thus instantly humiliating to the performer.

Constantly demeaned at work, the lower sorts of proles suffer from poor morale. As one woman worker says, “Most of us . . . have jobs that are too small for our spirits.”


At the bottom of the working class, the low prole is identifiable by the gross uncertainty of his employment. This class would include illegal aliens like Mexican fruit pickers as well as other migrant workers. Social isolation is the norm here, and what Hoggart says of the lower working class in Britain applies elsewhere as well: “Socially . . . each day and each week is almost unplanned. There is no diary, no book of engagements, and few letters are sent or received.” Remoteness and isolation, as in the valleys of Appalachia, are characteristics, and down here we find people who, trained for nothing, are likely out of sheer despair to join the Army.

Still, they’re better off than the destitute, who never have even seasonal work and who live wholly on welfare. They differ from the bottom-out-of-sights less because they’re much better off than because they’re more visible, in the form of Bowery bums, bag ladies, people who stand in public places lecturing and delivering harangues about their grievances, people who drink out of paper bags, people whose need for some recognition impels them to “act” in front of audiences in the street. When delinquency and distress grow desperate, you sink into the bottom-out-of-sight class, staying all day in your welfare room or contriving to get taken into an institution, whether charitable or correctional doesn’t matter much.

In the concluding chapter, Fussell identifies a tenth class, a “Category X” of declassed bohemians and intellectuals.
Second – but Microsoft Explorer says my message is too long so I’ll have to break it in half –