# Do some (especially) women misinterpret what is and isn't sexual or other harassment? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 1, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279 "2017-12-01T22:20:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/61 "2017-12-05T14:37:45Z")
**Do some (especially) women misinterpret what is and isn’t sexual or other harassment?** Maybe but since its a matter of personal perception I won’t say they are wrong about/for it. Some of the things that make me feel bad may not be of real concern to 90% of the fat old bald guys out there but that doesn’t mean they don’t hurt me or make them right. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/62 "2017-12-05T15:05:21Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I read about an intel agency (might have been the Stasi or perhaps the KGB) which discovered that honey traps against female targets were pretty easy to carry out. Against male ones, much more difficult. > > They said that once they got past a woman’s suspicions (which was easy), it was plain sailing. On the other hand with men the more flirty and “nice”, an agent acted, the more suspicious the target became. > > Which is why they preferred to go after female secretaries. As opposed to male aides. I wonder if they simply had a lot more male agents willing to have affairs with female targets than female agents willing to have affairs with male targets. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/63 "2017-12-05T15:34:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I wonder if they simply had a lot more male agents willing to have affairs with female targets than female agents willing to have affairs with male targets. Can’t be just that, since they don’t strictly need an agent, a prostitute/call girl for hire would do and then let her handler do the main intel gathering. Although they did speculate that one reason might have been that those male aides, mostly military men themselves, would be told beforehand to be vary, while secretaries and wives were not. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/64 "2017-12-05T16:09:10Z")
As I recall, the male Honeytrap really had it’s heyday in Postwar Berlin. The close proximity of the two sides combined with a shortage of eligible men due to war losses resulted in easy pickings for East German agents. There were stories of West German counterintelligence catching those guys simply by watching for handsome young men in civilian clothes and military haircuts taking the train from east to west. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/65 "2017-12-05T17:08:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ecks](#): > > As I recall, the male Honeytrap really had it’s heyday in Postwar Berlin. The close proximity of the two sides combined with a shortage of eligible men due to war losses resulted in easy pickings for East German agents. There were stories of West German counterintelligence catching those guys simply by watching for handsome young men in civilian clothes and military haircuts taking the train from east to west. Well its not like the East Germans or the Soviets would have a surplus of men after 1945, either. Besides\* Secretaries and wives, they had their greatest success in getting information from clerks in embassies and offices, people with little prestige or power and poor pay, but with access to a lot of information. These were mostly men incidentally. Which raises another interesting sociological issue. \*Quite a few of the relationships were _not_ sexual. I sometimes wonder if the training in those schools of seduction consisted of saying "_Comarade, be well dressed, polite and respectful._ ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/66 "2017-12-06T01:09:38Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I read about an intel agency (might have been the Stasi or perhaps the KGB) which discovered that honey traps against female targets were pretty easy to carry out. Against male ones, much more difficult. > > They said that once they got past a woman’s suspicions (which was easy), it was plain sailing. On the other hand with men the more flirty and “nice”, an agent acted, the more suspicious the target became. > > Which is why they preferred to go after female secretaries. As opposed to male aides. There was a private detective agency interviewed here that had business “testing” relationships to see if the partener was trustworth. (I think the subtext was that one partner wanted an excuse for divorce). The agency reported their experience that almost every person could be tempted if offered the approriate bait: men were willing to move on if they met an attractive young women who showed an interest: women were willing to move on if they met a wealthy and successful man who showed an interest. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/67 "2017-12-06T08:18:28Z")
I think rape culture is probably a fair description of some subset of society. I also think that human beings of either sex are capable of misunderstanding others, not to mention paranoia, obsessions, & delusions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/68 "2017-12-06T18:33:50Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Can’t be just that, since they don’t strictly need an agent, a prostitute/call girl for hire would do and then let her handler do the main intel gathering. My impression is that a prostitute/call girl could be used for a blackmail strategy, while for actual intelligence gathering you would need a trained agent. ---
**Author:** ![johnod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@johnod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnod)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/69 "2017-12-07T04:15:23Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > I had a female boss last year whose frequent comments on my body were part of why I left the job. Several times a week she’d walk by my desk and either ask what I was going to have for lunch/dinner or see a snack I was eating and say something like, “You can get away w/ eating that sort of thing b/c you’re so skinny. I can only eat that as a treat.” I asked her to stop, told her to stop, begged her to stop and then finally went to our boss to get it to stop. In a meeting w/ me, her and HR she claimed that since she felt she was complimenting me I should not mind that she talked about my body. The HR lady let her know intent didn’t matter, she was to stop. > > She started making fun of me about the HR meeting that day and I turned in my two week notice the next. In my exit interview the incredulous HR guy ran out of paper to make notes. That’s your idea of harassment/assault is it? ---
**Author:** ![johnod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@johnod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnod)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/70 "2017-12-07T04:36:02Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > Starting in the early 80s, I had to take sexual harassment training every year (first in the Navy, then as a civilian employee of the Navy) and one thing that was emphasized was that if you felt harassed, then it was harassment, even if it wasn’t meant to be. I might consider a comment to be obnoxious or annoying, but someone else might take offense. There’s no clear definition. > > And there are those who go out of their way to be offended - I had a roommate eons ago who yelled at a guy who held a door open for her. I could see her feeling harassed in the most innocent situations. And that’s something that really scares me - it destroys the credibility of those who are truly victimized. > > I’m hoping the awareness will lead to more people speaking up and being taken seriously, but I worry that there will be accusations by attention-seekers or just plain flakes. That whole,"if you feel harrassed’ thing is a lot of PC bull. That wouldn’t hold water anywhere except for dealing with women, in the present climate. If I feel I’m being charming and witty after six beers, and tell the waitress, nice boobs, was I charming and witty? I would think not. I also wouldn’t call it assault either. Stupid, rude, out of line etc, absolutely. Should I be taken to court, vilified, lose my job etc, No I shouldn’t, kicked out of the bar? Sure. After all I FELT I was being charming and witty, so it must be so. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/71 "2017-12-07T04:53:46Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > So what OUGHT a person do if a co-worker or boss is making increasingly personal comments each day and it’s making them uncomfortable? What should HR do if they receive such a complaint? Is it wrong to “investigate” and determine what happened? To suggest the person stop making such compliments? HR should investigate and recommend action be taken depending on what they find. I had a sexual harassment investigation recently where a female employee complained about some comments made by a male employee about the attire worn by her and another female employee. Next we’ll interview the other witness who was there at the time and subject to the same comments and we’ll see how well their statements match up. After that we’ll make a recommendation about what or if any corrective action should be taken against the male employee. From what I’ve heard so far I think it likely we’ll recommend some coaching for the male employee. The harassment was relatively mild and is an isolated incident according to our first witness. This doesn’t mean I’m not taking it seriously but there are degrees of offenses and this one is on the lighter side in my opinion. The funny thing is I don’t think we would have heard this complaint last year. And I think it’s a positive sign that we did. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/72 "2017-12-07T05:12:38Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > That’s your idea of harassment/assault is it? Harassment, yes. Thank you for asking when you’re unclear. ---
**Author:** ![johnod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@johnod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnod)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/73 "2017-12-07T14:46:54Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > Harassment, yes. Thank you for asking when you’re unclear. You’re quite welcome. I suspect you’re in for a life of feeling put upon, if a woman making idle conversation, about your lunch, and how she wishes she could get away with eating the same, is harassment in your mind. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/74 "2017-12-07T17:10:11Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > You’re quite welcome. > > I suspect you’re in for a life of feeling put upon, if a woman making idle conversation, about your lunch, and how she wishes she could get away with eating the same, is harassment in your mind. > > Good luck. \*" I asked her to stop, told her to stop, begged her to stop and then finally went to our boss to get it to stop. In a meeting w/ me, her and HR she claimed that since she felt she was complimenting me I should not mind that she talked about my body. The HR lady let her know intent didn’t matter, she was to stop. She started making fun of me about the HR meeting that day and I turned in my two week notice the next. In my exit interview the incredulous HR guy ran out of paper to make notes."\* Yes, it is harassment. Note the “I asked her to stop, told her to stop, begged her to stop …” and HR agreeing. Now, certainly a comment like that _could_ be OK. But not after being asked to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/75 "2017-12-07T18:10:27Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > You’re quite welcome. > > I suspect you’re in for a life of feeling put upon, if a woman making idle conversation, about your lunch, and how she wishes she could get away with eating the same, is harassment in your mind. > > Good luck. You’re still here, that’s a little surprising. That a new member would drop out of the sky and seemingly devoid of common courtesy or sense, that is not surprising. ---
**Author:** ![PCarolinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58f4c7/32.png) [@PCarolinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PCarolinus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/76 "2017-12-07T18:50:17Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > I had a female boss last year whose frequent comments on my body were part of why I left the job. Several times a week she’d walk by my desk and either ask what I was going to have for lunch/dinner or see a snack I was eating and say something like, “You can get away w/ eating that sort of thing b/c you’re so skinny. I can only eat that as a treat.” I asked her to stop, told her to stop, begged her to stop and then finally went to our boss to get it to stop. In a meeting w/ me, her and HR she claimed that since she felt she was complimenting me I should not mind that she talked about my body. The HR lady let her know intent didn’t matter, she was to stop. > > She started making fun of me about the HR meeting that day and I turned in my two week notice the next. In my exit interview the incredulous HR guy ran out of paper to make notes. Since you were willing to leave this job from sheer irritation with your boss’s bad manners, why didn’t you try a simple “Fuck off, I don’t want to hear your opinion on my lunch anymore.” At that point, what did you have to lose? Clearly the comments weren’t _sexual_ harassment. Clearly HR wasn’t concerned about a low-level employee’s frivolous complaint or they would have stepped in and moved you to another team. Everyone knows HR doesn’t protect the employEE, HR protects the company first, then the status quo. Why give up a job because your boss was an ill-mannered douche? Why not stand up for yourself and tell her to back off? What did you expect HR to do for you? To qualify my questions, I’ve been underweight my entire life and some women can be absolute cunts when it comes to comments about my figure and diet. But seriously, what did you expect a human resources department to do to protect you from speech the entire planet seems to feel is innocuous? What does you complaint have to do with the OP, other than confirming it? ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/77 "2017-12-07T19:41:00Z")
> [@PCarolinus](#): > > Since you were willing to leave this job from sheer irritation with your boss’s bad manners, why didn’t you try a simple “Fuck off, I don’t want to hear your opinion on my lunch anymore.” At that point, what did you have to lose? Clearly the comments weren’t _sexual_ harassment. Clearly HR wasn’t concerned about a low-level employee’s frivolous complaint or they would have stepped in and moved you to another team. > > Everyone knows HR doesn’t protect the employEE, HR protects the company first, then the status quo. Why give up a job because your boss was an ill-mannered douche? Why not stand up for yourself and tell her to back off? What did you expect HR to do for you? > To qualify my questions, I’ve been underweight my entire life and some women can be absolute cunts when it comes to comments about my figure and diet. But seriously, what did you expect a human resources department to do to protect you from speech the entire planet seems to feel is innocuous? What does you complaint have to do with the OP, other than confirming it? Thanks for your input, yet another new member falling from the sky seemingly devoid of common courtesy or sense. ---
**Author:** ![PCarolinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58f4c7/32.png) [@PCarolinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PCarolinus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/78 "2017-12-07T19:44:47Z")
Do you feel that a lack of manners and common sense = workplace harassment? Bad manners are worth losing a job over? Did you enjoy the job? Were you fearful for your security and safety? Need an escort to the parking lot? Compare your experience with bad manners to harassment you’ve experienced which made you feel fearful for your security or personal safety. How do the comments on your lunch compare to the time you felt fearful? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/79 "2017-12-07T20:04:20Z")
**Nawth Chucka** need not respond to these trolly questions. S/He was responding to my post about intent and how it could be misinterpreted. How about we get back to the thread topic at hand? ---
**Author:** ![PCarolinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58f4c7/32.png) [@PCarolinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PCarolinus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279/80 "2017-12-07T20:39:09Z")
Alright, snothanx, how bout you tell me how bad manners and inept small talk translate to workplace harassment? Would you raise a stink in HR and quit a job over thoughtless comments on your lunch? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-especially-women-misinterpret-what-is-and-isnt-sexual-or-other-harassment/803279.md?page=5)