# Do Some Folks Just Not Accept the Concept of “giving up on people”? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2023, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035 "2023-02-19T12:47:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/21 "2023-02-20T15:59:49Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I have no idea what “rock bottom” will look like to these people. It’s _this_. It’s what we have now. Ask them. It’s this dystopian Socialist/Marxist/Communist nightmare, blindly being served up by JoeTato and Kamala. During the worst of COVID, that … _that_ was Fascism (carrying a hypodermic needle and wrapped in an N95 mask). To them, things can only get better. It’s a vicious cycle and a poisonous feedback loop. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/22 "2023-02-20T16:12:59Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I have no idea what “rock bottom” will look like to these people. “rock bottom” is just a distraction. Do you think they’re sitting around and carefully calibrating when things are improving slightly, declining surprisingly, ticking up a bit suddenly? Of course not. These are the people who have contempt for any sort of evaluation, for any attempt at scientific (or even quasi-scientific) inquiry, or any kind of objective analysis. It’s always rock bottom when a Democratic administration is in charge, or a Democratic Congress is elected, or when and where any democrat anywhere serves in a position of power. It’s always “sad” and it’s always “wrong” or even “demonic” before they’ve explored what’s happening. Conclusions first, evidence last. The important thing to them is power, never principles. I’m amazed it took them this long to decide not to bother with an actual platform to run on. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/23 "2023-02-20T16:22:16Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > It’s _this_. It’s what we have now. Ask them. > [@slicedalone](#): > > Do you think they’re sitting around and carefully calibrating when things are improving slightly, declining surprisingly, ticking up a bit suddenly? I think you misunderstand. In this context, “Rock bottom” is what will make them finally realize that they’re an addict. In this case, an addict to propaganda. I’m not asking _them_ for a definition of what _they_ think “rock bottom” is, I’m asking, “What real-world condition will make them realize that voting for Trump and the Trumpanzees is a bad idea?” A million Americans dying of a disease, at least some of which deaths were preventable, millions more being sick, some uncertain percentage of whom are suffering long-term health problems as a result, wasn’t enough. Will Trump cratering the economy be enough? Will Trump outlawing unions be enough? Will Trump banning elections be enough? Will Trump allowing Russia to roll over half of Europe be enough? Will Trump allowing China to take over half the South China Sea area be enough? Or will they some day be sitting in the bombed out ruins of their towns, saying, “Well, Biden would never have given us such nice ruins to scrounge in!” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/24 "2023-02-20T16:25:49Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Or will they some day be sitting in the bombed out ruins of their towns, saying, “Well, Biden would never have given us such nice ruins to scrounge in!” Well, not so much Biden specifically but they WILL say it was all the fault of the “woke libs” who they just _know_ prevented the forces of good from prevailing. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/25 "2023-02-20T16:42:33Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I think you misunderstand. Nope. I knew what you meant. I just don’t see that scenario. They – probably more than ‘we --’ live in a near perfect information bubble. If they never leave the Episcopal Church then they’ll never know what the Presbyterians are saying. If they never leave the conservative information silo, then They Are Owned. Have you looked over at Fox News … to see how they’re covering the latest bombshells from the Dominion lawsuit against … Fox News? AFAICT, they aren’t. They just … aren’t. “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” – Mark Twain Forget rock bottom, _arguendo._ I don’t even see any substantive cracks in the collective armor. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/26 "2023-02-20T16:42:49Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Will Trump cratering the economy be enough? Will Trump outlawing unions be enough? Will Trump banning elections be enough? Will Trump allowing Russia to roll over half of Europe be enough? Will Trump allowing China to take over half the South China Sea area be enough? Trump’s never going to do any of those things because he’s never going to be POTUS again. But if those things happen under the next GOP president, the response from MAGAts will be: - It’s the Dems’ fault the economy cratered - It’s about time we banned those commie unions - It’s about time we banned those fraud-ridden elections - Who cares if Russia takes over Europe (or China, Asia); it’s no skin off my ass ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/27 "2023-02-20T16:44:59Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I think you misunderstand. In this context, “Rock bottom” is what will make them finally realize that they’re an addict. No, I don’t think you’re understanding me. They HAVE no bottom. The concept of a bottom is meaningless to them. The bottom would just be proof that they have more digging to do. That’s why these are the people I choose to give up on. They cannot be persuaded or shown anything. In fact, they define themselves by their imperviousness to persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/28 "2023-02-20T16:45:42Z")
…and I can’t even really argue with that, which is why I say I have no idea what it will take for them to finally wake up. Some catastrophe so catastrophic that it’s immune to spin. Does such a thing even exist? ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/29 "2023-02-20T16:46:41Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Have you looked over at Fox News … to see how they’re covering the latest bombshells from the Dominion lawsuit against … Fox News? Yes, I was wondering what my mom thought about all of that, then realized…she doesn’t know about it. Probably never will. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/30 "2023-02-20T16:50:32Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > They HAVE no bottom. The concept of a bottom is meaningless to them. > [@Horatius](#): > > I have no idea what it will take for them to finally wake up. I think it has to be something personal, not national or international. Some of the people convicted of crimes related to Jan. 6 seem to have reached this point, when they realize the information they’d been consuming and the leaders they’d been following were actually counter to the values they thought they had. IOW, people’s individual lives have to be destroyed, and even then many will still blame everyone but themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/31 "2023-02-20T16:53:18Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I think it has to be something personal, not national or international. But even then, we have counter-examples from COVID. People in the hospital, literally in the process of dying from COVID, loudly insisting that they’re fine, COVID is just a hoax, and it’s the commie doctors who are _really_ trying to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/32 "2023-02-20T16:55:20Z")
It’s really just about [**Jonestown**](https://www.britannica.com/event/Jonestown) in our media milieu these days. But there’s no **[Jackie Speier](https://people.com/politics/jackie-speier-shot-jonestown-cult-retire-congress/)** and no Congressional Delegation going in to do some reconnaissance. The bubble is basically hermetic. It’s an informational Faraday cage. To use the analogy of “rock bottom,” the dealers are extremely well-funded, well organized, have ample infrastructure, significant numbers, and powerful lobbying and PR firms all designed to keep the addict … using. And _feeling good about_ using. When things look the bleakest, and “rock bottom” _should_ be in sight, the machine doubles down on the blame game, the demagoguery, the existential threats that The Other Guy represents, and gives you just enough more of your drug of choice to perpetuate your oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/33 "2023-02-20T16:59:20Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > > [@Akaj](#): > > > > I think it has to be something personal, not national or international. > > But even then, we have counter-examples from COVID. People in the hospital, literally in the process of dying from COVID, loudly insisting that they’re fine, COVID is just a hoax, and it’s the commie doctors who are _really_ trying to kill them. Right, which is why I wrote > [@Akaj](#): > > many will still blame everyone but themselves. Just as many drug addicts will blame their parents, their exes, their former employers and any number of external actors for the shitty circumstances they find themselves in. They only begin to turn their lives around when they not just hit rock bottom, but admit that it’s the stuff they’ve been consuming that landed them there. Many never gain that clarity. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/34 "2023-02-20T17:03:55Z")
Which leads us back (I think we’ve gotten a bit off-topic) to the idea of giving up on people who are wedded for life to the MAGA worldview. The OP (that’s me) is interested in probing the difficulty of reaching that point, the comfort of making excuses for them, the sentimental or nostalgic position that remembers how they were (or seemed) before falling overboard into the MAGA Ocean. Some people just refuse to accept that there is such a point of no return, and I’m interested in hearing why they find that point so difficult to reach or even to see. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/35 "2023-02-20T17:10:01Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Which leads us back (I think we’ve gotten a bit off-topic) to the idea of giving up on people who are wedded for life to the MAGA worldview. Fortunately, I’m not close to anyone who’s sunk that far. But if I was, I like to think I’d have the spine to tell them I was about to write them out of my life, and why. I imagine most people, given that information, would say _fuck you_ and go away. But maybe there’s a chance that kind of message puts a tiny crack in their bubble. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/36 "2023-02-20T18:15:17Z")
My own most upsetting lost-to-MAGA friend was actually a Democrat whose elderly dad was a MAGA-nut. My friend was explaining how terrible it was to bring her kid (10 years old) to his grandpa’s house for the holidays and expose him to all this toxic ranting and raving, but when I suggested that maybe NOT exposing her son to his crazy grandpa was an option, she lost it with me, saying how vital family was to her, how grateful she felt to her father (he supported her financially through a rough divorce) and how offended she was that I could even suggest breaking it off with her father, who only had a few more years to live, etc. It was too bad, and I only made it worse by defending what I’d said (it was just a suggestion, not an order, and she was free to reject it entirely) but she just got angrier the more I tried reconciling with her. So we decided to break off the friendship. even though she and I agreed on politics pretty much right down the line. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2023, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/37 "2023-02-21T04:38:00Z")
Which as mentioned earlier is one of the factors involved. For many people, there are others, particularly family, for whom continuing engagement is just plain non-negotiable… > [@slicedalone](#): > > but she just got angrier the more I tried reconciling with her …and armchairing it from here, probably because even unconsciously on the part of the both of you, to her it only felt like getting rubbed in the face with how it was she who could not bring herself to do what was “right”. And coming from someone outside the family! ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/38 "2023-02-21T05:14:57Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > which is to give them a number of chances to persuade me they are sincere, genuinely holding policy positions that make sense to them, and so on, before I conclude that they are insincere trolls, racists, morons, provocateurs, and therefore no longer warrant my granting them the courtesy of hearing them out and responding to them with patience and civility—permanently. I believe my father sincerely and genuinely holds MAGA/QAnon positions that genuinely make sense to him. I don’t believe he’s just been trolling for close to a decade. He believes it so much he’s lost his home, lost his family and lost his mind. What does sincerity of belief have to do with it? He’s still a toxic moron I want nothing to do with. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/39 "2023-02-21T14:18:13Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” > > – Mark Twain A true statement, but not Twain’s. It was coined in 2011. The closest Twain came was: > How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again! [https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/12/23/fooled/?amp=1](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/12/23/fooled/?amp=1) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035/40 "2023-02-21T14:28:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > to her it only felt like getting rubbed in the face with how it was she who could not bring herself to do what was “right”. And coming from someone outside the family! I think a lot of people need to learn something I told a friend a long time ago: “You have to love your family, but you don’t have to like them very much.” It’s okay to maintain some social contact with MAGA types, or other problematic types, but it’s also okay to limit those contacts for your own mental health. Show up just in time for Thanksgiving dinner, but “Ooops, I have to run!” right after the pumpkin pie is done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-folks-just-not-accept-the-concept-of-giving-up-on-people/980035.md?page=3)