# Do some people deserve to die for the common good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053 "2000-08-28T16:33:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/21 "2000-08-29T00:02:25Z")
I personally oppose the assassination of foreign leaders because in my opinion this is sending the message that murder is an acceptable way of changing governments. I favour the democratic process whenever possible and I believe in the “practice what you preach” method. The ideal situation (IMHO) would be to give more authority to the United Nations to help remove brutal dictators. If a government does decide that it wants to get rid of another leader they should at least raise the issue in the United Nations and attempt to convince the rest of the member nations to try economic sanctions or other methods first. I do agree with MEBuckner though, I personally find it hard to reconcile in my mind the idea that “it’s OK to wage war against a country but it’s not OK to assassinate their leader.” Of course that is assuming that the government would change and the country would alter its policies after that leader was assassinated. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/22 "2000-08-29T00:03:38Z")
**Gomez** : > [@](#): > > sorry aboutt he condition of my last post. I’ve no idea how that happened. [Moderator Hat ON] If you use {quote} and {/quote} tags to quote people, instead of {code} and {/code} tags (except with the square brackets “[” and “]” instead of the curly braces “{” and “}”), you won’t foul up the formatting of the page. I fixed it for you in your post. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/23 "2000-08-29T00:13:00Z")
Crap. Dr. F knew he was on rough ground when I hit him with my counterargument. Does he try to reposition himself? No. Nothing so obvious. He states the classic (flawed) argument, and then immediately posts its refutation. By acknowledging the refutation before I have the chance to state it, he takes away its power. I find myself countered before I have even thrown the blow. The humorous fashion in which he does so makes me appear dense or beating a dead horse if I try to attack it head-on. I am beaten. I will go back to the dojo and train harder. One day soon though, young Grasshopper will be ready. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/24 "2000-08-29T00:15:00Z")
You have the right to kill someone when your willing to kill yourself afterwards. Murder of leaders doesen’t really change anything though except it produces martyrs so its actually better for a country to assasinate its own leaders. The only thing assasination does is put people with the same ideals but diffrent skills in place. Maybe if we assassinated Hitler a less insane leader would have been able to conquer all of europe. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/25 "2000-08-29T00:47:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*You have the right to kill someone when your willing to kill yourself afterwards. \*\* Oh really? So if I am an alcoholic wife beater, and she decides to divorce me, it’s ok if I kill her as long as I also do myself in? I didn’t realize it was somehow legal, or my right to climb up into the top of a tower and start shooting innocent passers by as long as I don’t let them take me alive. You sure you don’t want to rethink this? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/26 "2000-08-29T01:12:05Z")
In the case of assassinating Hitler, it has been said that Stalin would then have become the preminent tyrant in Europe. Personally, that doesn’t sound much better. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/27 "2000-08-29T07:53:08Z")
Hitler was, IMHO, a special case - popping him off would probably have been all to the good. Too bad v. Stauffenberg didn’t succeed. AFAIK, Hitlers military leadership after 43-44 sucked - the German general staff would probably have stood a better chance against the Russians without him. Rommel was apparently ready to try and negotiate a separate surrender on the West Front - but I digress. The OP: Sniping for heads of state sets a bad precedent - it makes our own presidents & prime ministers combattants, perhaps for years to come. And while SAS or SEALs might be able to make a clean strike without collateral damage (and I’m not at all convinced of that, these forces have definitely had their amount of cock-ups as well), a Serbian counterstrike would probably entail a lot of carbombs going off, hitting innocent bystanders all over the place. This might have ane effect on public opinion. In other words, sending in the snipers might reduce our own politicians’ chances of survival and of reelection. One can imagine that this might make them a tad reluctant to sign the order. BTW, I believe heads of state are civilians, technically speaking ? Non-combattant, according to the conventions. Now, if a crack team could arrest the fellows and bring them before a war crime tribunal. If at all possible, get a dozen and aquit 3 or 4 to show the fairness of the trial… That would really be something. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/28 "2000-08-29T15:27:31Z")
Sure Hitler was a charasmatic leader, and maybe this belongs in a seperate debate, but I don’t think killing him would have done any good. He was based on a massive political and social base. They could have easily found another charismatic leader and you would have had Goebbels and all the rest carrying on the dirty work. The problem with assisination is it takes a view that individual leaders are what controls the contry. Yes, they have quite a bit of control, however in few cases can you drasticly change the government simply by offing someone. You have the rest of the entrenched beuracracy, the mass of the people (who likely, even if they didn’t support the leader before, will support him out of outrage), and so on. And Arnold and MEBuckner are right. It is hard to support war and not assasination. That’s why I can’t support either. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/29 "2000-08-29T16:14:09Z")
Allright, the big problem with assasination as a tool of foreign policy is that assasinations must be secret to be effective. But we live in a democracy, where government actions must be as open as possible, so we can hold officials accountable. I believe that I have the right to defend myself against violence, and if the only way to do that is to use violence, so be it. If someone tries to kill me for no reason, and I defend myself and they die, then I am perfectly within my rights. I would extend this concept, I have the right to do all kinds of things to people who deserve it. I have the right to beat the crap out of people who put my life in danger, etc. But there is a problem. I am a fallible human, maybe I’ve made a mistake, and the person who I beat the crap out of didn’t deserve it. So we institute procedures to determine what punishments various people deserve, and try to keep things as objective as possible. There is no way we can do this with assasination. There is no way that a democratic government can carry this out without problems. It is better for us to declare that assasination is barred, and use our power to dissuade authoritarian governments that they will be punished if the try it, than to try to use such a flawed tool. As far as Saddam goes, we had the right to bomb military targets, and shoot at enemy soldier. Saddam often wears a military uniform, he is equivalent to an enemy general. We can bomb the general’s headquarters or Saddam’s palace, and if he gets caught, well, so what? The other trouble is that democratic governments are much or vulnerable to assasination. Do you guys realize the precautions that Saddam goes through to avoid being shot? There are literally three or four people in Iraq who know what Saddam’s schedule is, he comes and goes as he pleases, he as dozens, hundreds of safe houses, he has doubles, he has security forces that are not bound by constitutional niceties. It is his policy to order military officers to approach their friends and ask them if they want to join the rebellion. If you don’t turn in your friend, you are shot. And then it is your turn to pretend to be a rebel, and your friends must report you or face execution. It is not easy to assisinate a man who has bent the entire resources of the country of Iraq for his own safety and enrichment. Whereas in America, a lone nut with a sniper rifle can pretty much do what he likes. Our only protection is that the lone nuts usually aren’t _clever_ enough. Yes, I know in the movies they have homocidal geniuses, but in reality most homocidal people are far from geniuses. The only reason any crimes are ever solved is that most criminals are idiots. Anyway, it would be moral to assasinate evil foreign leaders, but it would usually be unwise. Oh, one more thing. I don’t think we can call Saddam a client of ours. Yes, we really have had some horrible people who were our clients…the Shah, Noriega, etc. But Saddam is different. He was really a Soviet client, that’s why most of the tanks we blew up were T-72s. The Baath party is not our creation, we supported the King the Brits installed there the Baath overthrew. The Baath has always been anti-Western, even back when Saddam was merely the puppetmaster minister of defense. It is true that we somewhat backed Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war, but come on, this was just after the hostage thing. Are we gonna back Khomeini? And we didn’t back him very much, mostly we sat out and did nothing. We were trying to cultivate him as a counterweight to Iran, but he was never our client. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/30 "2000-08-29T21:01:07Z")
To whom did Saddam sell his oil ? Who sold him his most advanced and most threatening technology (France has a large part of this too) He approached the US first and USSR but he played both ends against the middle. The Russians sold him weapons and we provided him with the means to buy, and you don’t believe that the State department was ignorant of that? Somewhat backed Saddam during the Iran conflict is a an understatement as that war lasted for 8 years, they were at each other in '81 when I was on the Armilla patrol for a few weeks and that war had been going on for some time even then.How long do you have to back someone before you can call them a client ? > [@](#): > > THE GULF WAR > > The United States did not have diplomatic relations with either belligerent in 1980 and announced its neutrality in the conflict. One typically humanitarian State Department official explained in 1983: “we don’t give a damn as long as the Iran-Iraq carnage does not affect our allies in the region or alter the balance of power.”\<29\> In fact, however, the United States was not indifferent to the war, but saw a number of positive opportunities opened up by its prolongation. > > The need for arms and money would make Baghdad more dependent on the conservative Gulf states and Egypt, thereby moderating Iraq’s policies and helping to repair ties between Cairo and the other Arab states. The war would make Iran – whose weapons had all been U.S.-supplied in the past – desperate to obtain U.S. equipment and spare parts. The exigencies of war might make both nations more willing to restore their relations with Washington. Alternatively, the dislocations of war might give the U.S. greater ability to carry out covert operations in Iran or Iraq. And turmoil in the Gulf might make other states in the area more susceptible to U.S. pressure for military cooperation. Which came from [http://www.khomeini.com/GatewayToHeaven/Articles/UnitedStatesAndIranIraqWar.htm](http://www.khomeini.com/GatewayToHeaven/Articles/UnitedStatesAndIranIraqWar.htm) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/31 "2000-08-29T21:25:29Z")
I’m sure this is a logical fallacy which has a fancy Latin name and all, but…your source is “[www.khomeini.com](http://www.khomeini.com)”? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/32 "2000-08-29T21:37:43Z")
Maybe so but it doesn’t pull any punches regarding the Khomeini, Iraq, or Iran. > [@](#): > > Primary responsibility for the eight long years of bloodletting must rest with the governments of the two countries – the ruthless military regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the ruthless clerical regime of the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran. Khomeini was said by some to have a “martyr complex,” though, as U.S. Secretary of State Cyrus Vance wryly observed, people with martyr complexes rarely live to be as old as Khomeini. Whatever his complexes, Khomeini had no qualms about sending his followers, including young boys, off to their deaths for his greater glory. This callous disregard for human life was no less characteristic of Saddam Hussein. Don’t look at the messenger look at the message. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/33 "2000-08-29T21:47:45Z")
Also note that, in the whole article, they are careful enough to cite sources and those sources appear to be pretty reputable. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/34 "2000-08-29T23:45:57Z")
Well, hey! We’ve already tried it with Castro…not too successful… ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2000, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053/35 "2000-08-30T11:31:17Z")
But the dictator is just the blackhead on the festering pus-filled zit of a society ready to explode. Shoot him and another one will be along in a minute. Shoot him too? Well - why not just shoot everyone and invade Poland? regards, pan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-deserve-to-die-for-the-common-good/31053.md?page=1)