# Do some people NEED faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810 "2013-08-09T15:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/81 "2013-08-16T17:38:03Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > [You said greater,](http://thesaurus.com/browse/Superior) it makes no difference. Earlier you said your greater system of thought was unexplainable. Now it seems you’re trying to explain it again. It does make a difference, greater means larger, the word is not in the link you provided. Sure I keep trying to explain the system, even though it can be contradictory in that you believe and don’t believe at the same time. It shows it is not necessary to believe or not believe there is another level of thought. Call it undecided if you wish. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/82 "2013-08-16T18:44:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It does make a difference, greater means larger, the word is not in the link you provided. Sure I keep trying to explain the system, even though it can be contradictory in that you believe and don’t believe at the same time. It shows it is not necessary to believe or not believe there is another level of thought. Call it undecided if you wish. What he wishes or doesn’t wish to call it doesn’t matter since you can’t decide if you believe it or not at the same time trying to explain the unexplainable. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/83 "2013-08-16T18:52:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I didn’t say superior. I think most people get it. There is no atheists vs. Christians, no them and us, only we. A book cannot be written that will accurately describe the mindset of any group of people. Once we start thinking in terms of reality so many of our fears and problems disappear. No one is completely faithful or doubtful of anything. It is all a myth. When the myth goes away so do the labels. Try as I might, I cannot parse this post so that it makes any sense to me. 😕 If “most people get it”, I guess I must not be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/84 "2013-08-16T19:04:43Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It does make a difference, greater means larger, the word is not in the link you provided. Actually, it’s the second word used in the link I provided: **Superior** _adj_ better, greater, higher, excellent. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/85 "2013-08-16T19:27:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Try as I might, I cannot parse this post so that it makes any sense to me. 😕 > > If “most people get it”, I guess I must not be one of them. It concerns the uniqueness of all things in this Universe. No two people are alike even if they are identical twins. The same for all living things. But the mind is led to believe things come in groups, species, and other groupings. You learn this in school. The native Americans saw things as individuals and even gave names to birds, etc. We are limited by our educations not enlightened. If you meet a man that says he saw a ghost it is not necessary to believe or disbelieve him. Ask questions and learn. Nothing is as it seems to be, there will always be extenuating circumstances. Understanding this quiets the mind and brings peace to the soul. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/86 "2013-08-16T19:39:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It concerns the uniqueness of all things in this Universe. No two people are alike even if they are identical twins. The same for all living things. But the mind is led to believe things come in groups, species, and other groupings. You learn this in school. The native Americans saw things as individuals and even gave names to birds, etc. We are limited by our educations not enlightened. If you meet a man that says he saw a ghost it is not necessary to believe or disbelieve him. Ask questions and learn. Nothing is as it seems to be, there will always be extenuating circumstances. Understanding this quiets the mind and brings peace to the soul. Magic buzzphrases aside, do you think that faith is something that some people actually _need_ to continue on? ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/87 "2013-08-16T20:01:49Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by this? The correct structure of the sentence he quoted should have been “my brother and me,” rather than “my brother and I.” ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/88 "2013-08-16T20:03:55Z")
Faith is believing in something you can’t prove. I suspect that most people have it even if they don’t realize it. Here’s a list of a few of the things that I think most of us need to avoid depression/suicide: Trust that our actions will produce a tolerable life for ourselves. That our health will remain with us long enough to amass possessions and needs. That enough people will care about us that we are supported or at least safe. That the sun will rise and we won’t live in constant darkness. That the society we live in won’t break down into chaos or the environment become hostile. Those are only a few of the things each of us probably rarely think of but take for granted when we awaken in the morning. Because if we didn’t have faith in each of them _en mass_ there would be little will to continue on. The only difference among us is how we perceive and relate to the source of those life-sustaining things. But it is that flimsy thing called _faith_ that keeps us putting one foot in front of the other without knowing where the path leads. It’s part of the paradigm that all humans are body, mind and spirit. That isn’t religious. It’s spiritual - how we interact with our environment, our source of sustenance and others. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/89 "2013-08-16T20:17:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Magic buzzphrases aside, do you think that faith is something that some people actually _need_ to continue on? I think everyone needs faith in this life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/90 "2013-08-16T20:21:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I think everyone needs faith in this life. And what do you mean by “faith”? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/91 "2013-08-16T20:31:54Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Faith is believing in something you can’t prove. I suspect that most people have it even if they don’t realize it. > > Here’s a list of a few of the things that I think most of us need to avoid depression/suicide: I’m not sure any of these things have anything to do with faith. Deduction and induction, ie logic, yes. To wit > [@](#): > > Trust that our actions will produce a tolerable life for ourselves. But we’ve seen our parents and others have a tolerable life based on their actions. Why do you need faith to believe in this? Faith would be trusting that god will provide even if we do nothing, like some preachers preach. > [@](#): > > That our health will remain with us long enough to amass possessions and needs. If this were faith, no one would buy health insurance. No, we go to the doctor, we sometimes eat right and exercise, and we take our pills. > [@](#): > > That enough people will care about us that we are supported or at least safe. But we reach out to other people and care about them - not to mention seeing others get this support. And what about the loners? Not enough faith? > [@](#): > > That the sun will rise and we won’t live in constant darkness. Only if you think the Sun rising is a miracle, or believe in Apollo or something. The rest of us know this by science, not faith. > [@](#): > > That the society we live in won’t break down into chaos or the environment become hostile. > [@](#): > > The only difference among us is how we perceive and relate to the source of those life-sustaining things. But it is that flimsy thing called _faith_ that keeps us putting one foot in front of the other without knowing where the path leads. > > It’s part of the paradigm that all humans are body, mind and spirit. That isn’t religious. It’s spiritual - how we interact with our environment, our source of sustenance and others. Faith is the belief in things unseen. Everything in your list is seen. Only people with no sense of the connection between actions and consequences would think your list has anything to do with faith. And not all of them are true all the time. Now, thinking that God loves you and only means the best for you after a terrible tragedy, that’s faith. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/92 "2013-08-16T20:43:56Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Faith is believing in something you can’t prove. I suspect that most people have it even if they don’t realize it. > > Here’s a list of a few of the things that I think most of us need to avoid depression/suicide: > > Trust that our actions will produce a tolerable life for ourselves. > > That our health will remain with us long enough to amass possessions and needs. > > That enough people will care about us that we are supported or at least safe. > > That the sun will rise and we won’t live in constant darkness. > > That the society we live in won’t break down into chaos or the environment become hostile. > > Those are only a few of the things each of us probably rarely think of but take for granted when we awaken in the morning. Because if we didn’t have faith in each of them _en mass_ there would be little will to continue on. None of those is “faith”. The Sun example is especially ridiculous; the Sun has risen billions of times and will rise billions more barring some low probability event like a near pass by a rogue planet tearing Earth out of its orbit. Faith is a belief based on no evidence, and usually against the evidence. Faith isn’t assuming that our “health will remain with us long enough to amass possessions and needs”; it’s assuming that to be true when you have incurable cancer or are on fire. Believing that your spouse loves you isn’t faith; believing that she loves you when she’s coming after you with a bloody axe, that’s faith. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/93 "2013-08-17T00:04:43Z")
Drat. Lost my post. Perhaps I’ll come back later. I keep losing this site. I’m offering the sleepy foot OP another way to look at spirituality/religion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/94 "2013-08-17T00:16:49Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I’m offering the sleepy foot OP another way to look at spirituality/religion. :dubious: The sleepy _what?!_ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/95 "2013-08-17T03:41:57Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Drat. Lost my post. Perhaps I’ll come back later. I keep losing this site. You clearly need more faith in the hamsters. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/96 "2013-08-18T17:44:37Z")
**Der Trihs, Voyager** , looks like the hamsters are up and running today. The sleepy foot -our Original Poster. Body, mind, spirit. You can call the spirit part _feelings_, \* _attitude_ or _meaning_ if you like. It’s not only those but it’s equally intangible. Any one of the three can be used to interpret and make decisions. The optimal, for the health of the individual, are made using all three. If you’ve ever read the musings of Einstein you’ll see that he recognized this. When a person is in balance and using all three in a positive way, for growth, he is said to be in a state of health. Healthy in body and mind but not in spirit looks like unhappy, negative, self-defeating, destructive, self-destructive. Various levels. You already know what unhealthy in body or mind looks like. Addressing the healing aspect of a healthy spirit is the reason why hospitals now pay attention to the color they paint their rooms and how they serve their food, play music, etc. Even includes tone of voice and how they treat their patients as part of the decision-making process. If you’re still puzzled about spirit think about a sportsman who has trained endlessly and yet now and then he will be off his game for no explainable reason. He’ll say something like, " I dunno, I just didn’t have _it_ today." This is about as basic as I can manage. Hope it seems a bit more clear. I suspect that you’re so wary of religion that it’s hard for you to be open-minded about it. And there are hucksters out there, as in everything. But for me it has nothing to do with religion. Religion is ritual and theology. Body, mind and spirit is our individual makeup. ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/97 "2013-08-18T23:36:51Z")
> [@](#): > > No such thing as a utopia. Many religious people claim such a place awaits them after this life is over with, but I don’t see any in a hurry to get there, do you? I don’t believe in afterlife. The Bible clearly calls death an enemy and says that the dead know nothing and feel nothing and are totally…dead. No, i don’t believe good folks go to heaven as a standard. Lazarus was dead for 4 days, why would Jesus even bother resurrecting him if he was such a nice guy? Why would Jesus cry about him dying? Adam was created so as not to die and not to grow old. Even atheist scientists figure us growing old and dying is not logical. I also don’t believe in hell. It’s another fairy tale to scare us and keep the people in line. But it’s not biblical. People can live without faith. I know several balanced, good people that don’t believe anything. (so they say) It’s just my opinion that faith, the right faith, can improve one’s life and this world a lot. But that’s just my opinion. When there is no more faith in anything unseen or not academically proven maybe we will have a great prosperous peaceful happy world. Maybe all our current problems will be solved. Let’s wait and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/98 "2013-08-19T01:50:24Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Addressing the healing aspect of a healthy spirit is the reason why hospitals now pay attention to the color they paint their rooms and how they serve their food, play music, etc. Even includes tone of voice and how they treat their patients as part of the decision-making process. We react better to different colors than others, perhaps from where we evolved. It is simple enough to do experiments to determine which colors are best - again, no faith involved. Our brains and bodied are an integrated whole - that seems fairly obvious. I was once able to affect my heart rate when hooked to a monitor - no spirituality, meditation, or other woo involved. > [@](#): > > I suspect that you’re so wary of religion that it’s hard for you to be open-minded about it. And there are hucksters out there, as in everything. But for me it has nothing to do with religion. Religion is ritual and theology. Body, mind and spirit is our individual makeup. I once believed in god, and my religious experience was very positive. I’m an atheist now not because my rabbi was mean to me, and not from bad things happening, but simply because when I discovered the authorship of the Bible it was clear it was written by humans with no divine intervention - and was just a story. Being Jewish I felt about Jesus like Christians feel about Krishna, though the Jesus followers were somewhat more annoying. If you want me to believe in any god, give me some evidence. Haven’t seen any convincing evidence in 40 years of discussing this on-line. Otherwise the Western god is just one more myth. Nice story, but not true. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/99 "2013-08-19T03:20:43Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Body, mind, spirit. You can call the spirit part _feelings_, \* _attitude_ or _meaning_ if you like. It’s not only those but it’s equally intangible. Any one of the three can be used to interpret and make decisions. It’s so much easier to be spiritual when specific words don’t have specific meanings, isn’t it? “Feelings”, “attitude”, and “meaning” are not synonyms no matter how much your particular belief system depends on your wish that they were. When you use the word “spirit”, what specifically do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/100 "2013-08-19T03:30:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t buy that anyone needs faith; that’s a propaganda line pushed by believers. Usually coupled with rhetoric about how atheists are evil and miserable. > > That I don’t believe in any gods. > > And let me guess, all the other “holy” texts that contradict it and have lasted as long or longer, it’s perfectly reasonable to disbelieve _them._ If age is what matters why aren’t you, say, a Hindu? Hinduism is much older than Christianity. But neither is anywhere _near_ as old as mankind; both religions have existed for only a tiny fraction of the history of humanity. > > Christianity is in the position it is today because it has historically been very good at motivating people into mass murder and tyranny in its name, not because it’s truthful. Just like Islam, another religion with a fondness for conversion by the sword. Didn’t you recently post that IRL that no one close to you knows you are an atheist? Or was that someone else? The question asks do some people need faith. If the faith of those who believe assumes the faith of those who do not believe but keep it silent, isn’t that also reliance on faith? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810.md?page=6)