# Do some people NEED faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810 "2013-08-09T15:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/101 "2013-08-19T04:57:14Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Even atheist scientists figure us growing old and dying is not logical. Say what? Scientists don’t think that. Us growing old and dying is just as logical as anything else wearing out and ceasing function. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Didn’t you recently post that IRL that no one close to you knows you are an atheist? Or was that someone else? It was me. And my brother knows (and is an atheist himself); to my knowledge no one else who knows me IRL and is still alive knows. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The question asks do some people need faith. If the faith of those who believe assumes the faith of those who do not believe but keep it silent, isn’t that also reliance on faith? :dubious: No, that’s intolerance. An intolerance so great that it finds even the _concept_ that other people may disagree unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/102 "2013-08-19T05:26:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It was me. And my brother knows (and is an atheist himself); to my knowledge no one else who knows me IRL and is still alive knows. No trouble with hiding the bodies, I suppose? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/103 "2013-08-19T05:56:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No trouble with hiding the bodies, I suppose? I was referring to my dead parents and a few other dead relatives. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/104 "2013-08-19T06:03:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: No, that’s intolerance. An intolerance so great that it finds even the _concept_ that other people may disagree unacceptable. That’s my point. There are those people out there, but the truly intolerant ones, of all stripes, are a noisy and troublesome few. I’ve never met anyone whom I didn’t disagree with on some things. The ones who find disagreement unacceptable I try to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/105 "2013-08-19T06:48:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > That’s my point. There are those people out there, but the truly intolerant ones, of all stripes, are a noisy and troublesome few. No, they are the majority, the norm. It’s the “live and let live” believers who are the fringe movement. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/106 "2013-08-19T10:42:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they are the majority, the norm. It’s the “live and let live” believers who are the fringe movement. It would be interesting to see you provide evidence for your belief, here. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/107 "2013-08-19T13:17:49Z")
I have some reading to do. I didn’t know this thread was still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/108 "2013-08-19T14:05:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they are the majority, the norm. It’s the “live and let live” believers who are the fringe movement. Is there any actual evidence that this is true? That’s a petty definitive statement to be just an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/109 "2013-08-19T14:25:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > . > > It was me. And my brother knows (and is an atheist himself); to my knowledge no one else who knows me IRL and is still alive knows. Really? I’m shocked. I particularly look for your posts in these kinds of threads because I agree with you most of the time. You’re so vocal about it on this board, I’m just shocked you haven’t told anyone IRL aside from your brother. My brother’s an athiest also, along with my dad… who didn’t really “come out” as one until my brother and I, (or is it “my brother and me”), were older. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/110 "2013-08-19T15:39:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they are the majority, the norm. It’s the “live and let live” believers who are the fringe movement. Where I come from virtually everyone is live and let live. The Fred Phelps types are generally in hidden where I live and definitely in the minority. Most are in fact very quiet in public. Bigotry is greatly disapproved of in public and the bigots operate when they think everyone in hearing agrees with them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/111 "2013-08-19T16:36:40Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I have some reading to do. I didn’t know this thread was still alive. It came back on the third day. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/112 "2013-08-20T06:04:21Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > I don’t believe in afterlife. Is it more along the lines of believing some never die and live forever? Will only 144,000 make it to heaven? > [@](#): > > The Bible clearly calls death an enemy and says that the dead know nothing and feel nothing and are totally…dead. No, i don’t believe good folks go to heaven as a standard. Lazarus was dead for 4 days, why would Jesus even bother resurrecting him if he was such a nice guy? Why would Jesus cry about him dying? Because the writer wanted tell a better story? Without going to all the verses that support or go against this view, the rich man that was in Hades and being tormented had looked up above to find Abraham and Lazarus and had asked Abraham for permission to send Lazarus down with water to cool his tongue from the fiery flames for he was in agony. > [@](#): > > Adam was created so as not to die and not to grow old. Even atheist scientists figure us growing old and dying is not logical. Imagine how much chaos this would create if no one died. This must be quite popular with JW’s, because the two different encounters I have had with each pair of them at my door spent some time on this. The same cells in humans is the same mechanism in animals, so are these scientists equally stumped in animals growing old and dying, or just humans? Do any of your JW tracts ever list names of these atheist scientists or does it just speak in general? If so, I’d like to hear these names, particularly what biologists would say such a thing. Will they find Adam’s 930 year lifespan every bit as credible as dead men being brought back to life that had already started stinking from decay too? > [@](#): > > I also don’t believe in hell. It’s another fairy tale to scare us and keep the people in line. But it’s not biblical. Others will state your stance isn’t biblical. Some can make a good case for it either way, so does it really matter? I know some that say you have to go to the original languages to fully understand this aspect, but looks like a lot of work, and has me questioning today’s translations when one continually has to go this route for every single story. With a large amount of writers telling various viewpoints in the bible, and with readers having a basically an infinite number of even more ways to interpret it, have you been able to determine what is gained from it all? > [@](#): > > People can live without faith. I know several balanced, good people that don’t believe anything. (so they say) > It’s just my opinion that faith, the right faith, can improve one’s life and this world a lot. But that’s just my opinion. > > When there is no more faith in anything unseen or not academically proven maybe we will have a great prosperous peaceful happy world. Maybe all our current problems will be solved. > > Let’s wait and see what happens. I’m sure some faithful get a certain type of euphoria from such beliefs, but not sure how effective it is. Others may describe it as a placebo. I find many saying they struggle with their faith on a fairly regular basis. It’s the one’s that don’t that I’m a bit leery of. If they all were to realize their faith was in vain, I don’t picture them killing themselves off. Evidence of this is how many have already accepted it. I think they will find that life is still worth living, and may even appreciate it more. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/113 "2013-08-20T06:18:12Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > You’re so vocal about it on this board, I’m just shocked you haven’t told anyone IRL aside from your brother. My brother’s an athiest also, along with my dad… who didn’t really “come out” as one until my brother and I, (or is it “my brother and me”), were older. This seems to be quite common from what I gather in that many atheists still keep a low profile in real life and rarely even talking about religion around family members as well. There were some thread/threads here on SD or possibly it was the old II board or both, that also commented a bit on that. ---
**Author:** ![davidklk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@davidklk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidklk)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/114 "2013-08-20T09:29:46Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > This seems to be quite common from what I gather in that many atheists still keep a low profile in real life and rarely even talking about religion around family members as well. There were some thread/threads here on SD or possibly it was the old II board or both, that also commented a bit on that. I’m quite surprised by this - Guessing you folk are in America? I’m in the UK and atheism is basically the default position for most people - at least in the two cities closest to where I live - It doesn’t really get discussed much but there’s no shame or ignominy in it. (Before someone comes back with a census - i’m aware that officially roughly 60% is still christian - but observational evidence of living here and talking to people tells me that’s an inflated figure. Many people (that I know personally) count “I do Christmas” or “I was baptized as a baby” as enough to put christian down, despite not actually believing. - Still, its a bit of extrapolation on my part) Point being, I know many religious and non-religious people and its (usually, not counting nutters) a live-and-let-live attitude all round. Is it common in the US for atheists (or vice versa in other areas) to be embarrassed or disgraced? > [@lekatt](#): > > A book cannot be written that will accurately describe the mindset of any group of people A bit off tangential, but speaking statistically, you can only predict what a group of people will behave like, not any one individual - the larger the sample size of people, the more accurate the prediction. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/115 "2013-08-20T10:45:43Z")
> [@davidklk](#): > > I’m quite surprised by this - Guessing you folk are in America? > > I’m in the UK and atheism is basically the default position for most people - at least in the two cities closest to where I live - It doesn’t really get discussed much but there’s no shame or ignominy in it. > (Before someone comes back with a census - i’m aware that officially roughly 60% is still christian - but observational evidence of living here and talking to people tells me that’s an inflated figure. Many people (that I know personally) count “I do Christmas” or “I was baptized as a baby” as enough to put christian down, despite not actually believing. - Still, its a bit of extrapolation on my part) > > Point being, I know many religious and non-religious people and its (usually, not counting nutters) a live-and-let-live attitude all round. Is it common in the US for atheists (or vice versa in other areas) to be embarrassed or disgraced? > > A bit off tangential, but speaking statistically, you can only predict what a group of people will behave like, not any one individual - the larger the sample size of people, the more accurate the prediction. Doesn’t make any sense that you can’t predict a single person but can predict a group of people. Isn’t that because groups usually have leaders that tell the group how to act. So you data is not really about the group at all only the leader which brings us back to a single person. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/116 "2013-08-20T10:59:01Z")
> [@davidklk](#): > > I’m quite surprised by this - Guessing you folk are in America? > > I’m in the UK and atheism is basically the default position for most people - at least in the two cities closest to where I live - It doesn’t really get discussed much but there’s no shame or ignominy in it. Well, matters in America are entirely different. Religion is discussed all the time, and atheism is openly and widely condemned. Coming out as an atheist is a good way to get ostracized by your family or have your boss find an excuse to fire you. > [@davidklk](#): > > Point being, I know many religious and non-religious people and its (usually, not counting nutters) a live-and-let-live attitude all round. Is it common in the US for atheists (or vice versa in other areas) to be embarrassed or disgraced? Atheists are the most despised group in America, last time I saw a poll. ---
**Author:** ![davidklk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@davidklk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidklk)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/117 "2013-08-20T12:13:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Coming out as an atheist is a good way to get ostracized by your family or have your boss find an excuse to fire you. Really? Just… wow… I had naively assumed it was the same as it was over here. We even have legal protections about not getting fired for beliefs (which are very rarely needed, but when they are, tend to be about fringe religion rather than atheism) > [@lekatt](#): > > Doesn’t make any sense that you can’t predict a single person but can predict a group of people. Isn’t that because groups usually have leaders that tell the group how to act. So you data is not really about the group at all only the leader which brings us back to a single person. Its not about leaders, just probabilities - i’m not an expert or anything, but: To give an example - assume a situation where an individual is given 3 a choice of three (lets say equal value) prizes… you cannot infer at all from watching what they pick, what someone else will do if presented with the same choice. However, try the same with 1,000 people, lets say that 40, 30, 30 percent of people picked each respective prize, sample another 1,000 random people and the results probably wont be very far off what you saw originally. And when you do it will 100,000 people the results will follow more accurately again. Larger samples will usually show more consistent results. ---
**Author:** ![jonnyfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@jonnyfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonnyfrank)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/118 "2013-08-20T12:37:13Z")
The part I am uncomfortable with is that, being an atheist, I know that that relief is not a function of a higher power, but one of personal strength and/or your support network. I don’t like the idea of people short changing themselves, and giving credit for their own or other’s hard work to something that doesn’t exist. It seems like everyone would be better off if they recognize that that strength comes from within. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/119 "2013-08-20T12:39:06Z")
I live in the States and I’m very open about being an atheist. My Facebook page is proof of that, (but I don’t mock religion). So far it hasn’t effected me negatively, but it might one day I guess. A lot of it depends on where you live I think. I THINK, (not 100% sure), I lost a “friend” because of it… but I have plenty of friends who know, and don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810/120 "2013-08-20T13:49:40Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > \*\*]I don’t believe in afterlife. \*\*The Bible clearly calls death an enemy and says that the dead know nothing and feel nothing and are totally…dead. No, i don’t believe good folks go to heaven as a standard. Lazarus was dead for 4 days, why would Jesus even bother resurrecting him if he was such a nice guy? Why would Jesus cry about him dying? \ bullshit. You may frame it differently - but you absolutely believe in an ‘after life’ - in that a) 144,000 get to go to heaven (this is a tennant of the JW faith - you claim to be one) b) those that died faithful will be resurrected to live in paradise (being ruled by the 144k). Those that died without knowing the ‘truth’ will be resurected and given a second chance to learn - only those that ‘rejected’ the ‘truth’ will stay dead (and even that has changed). Since you believe that “death is like sleep” and that there would be zero awareness until awakened - it would be instantaneous to those that are 'resurrected" - that’s the very definition of believing in an afterlife. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-some-people-need-faith/665810.md?page=7)