# Do states other than New York have an "Upstate"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501 "2012-05-30T01:00:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/61 "2012-05-31T03:29:28Z")
The biggest county in the contiguous United States is [San Bernardino County, CA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_County,_California). At 20,105 square miles, it’s roughly 3 times the size of St. Louis County in Minnesota (6,860 square miles). In fact, many counties in the western states area beat that, including the seven largest counties in Arizona (Coconino County is the second largest): > **[List of counties in Arizona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Arizona)** > > There are 15 counties in the U.S. state of Arizona. Four counties (Mohave, Pima, Yavapai and Yuma) were created in 1864 following the organization of the Arizona Territory in 1862. The now defunct Pah-Ute County was split from Mohave County in 1865, but merged back in 1871. All but La Paz County were created by the time Arizona was granted statehood in 1912. La Paz County was established in 1983 after many years of pushing for independence from Yuma County. > Eight of Arizona's fifteen counties... We have to say “contiguous” United States in case somebody wants to count Alaskan Boroughs. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/62 "2012-05-31T15:35:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Catskills are maybe part of Central New York or maybe part of the Hudson Valley. It’s an unsolved mystery. And the area between the Catskills and the Delaware River has no individual identity at all. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/63 "2012-05-31T15:40:07Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Odd thing to call a nitpick. Those are usually small bits of fact that someone got wrong. There’s nothing approaching a consensus as to what comprises up/down state. > > \*Brewster \*is ‘upstate’? Going to tell someone from Buffalo that Newburgh is ‘upstate’? People from Albany barely qualify for upstate, and mostly when they want to be considered as far from the city as possible. When we left the city for a bit of forest in Sullivan county no one knew the name of our town, but easily distinguished between up- and downstate. > > Sure there are people who think anything outside of the city limits is upstate, but it’s pretty far from a nitpick. I lived in a bit of Sullivan County forest as a kid. 🙂 As for definitions, everyone north of Westchester and Rockland thinks they’re upstate, but until you get at least to the Catskills or Albany, everyone further out thinks the ones closer in are nuts. And if you live in the city, everything north of the Cross County Parkway is upstate. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/64 "2012-05-31T15:45:03Z")
Alaska has no “upstate”, but it’s a huge place. It’s usually divided into regions: Southeast, South Central, Interior, Arctic, Southwest, Aleutians. Oregon’s dividing line is the Cascades for east and west (both physical and political boundary). And people refer to The Coast as its own region. ---
**Author:** ![spikebrennan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@spikebrennan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spikebrennan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/65 "2012-06-01T17:02:16Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > There is? I’ve lived here most of my life and never heard the term even once. Absolutely it exists. From the perspective of southeastern Pennsylvania, “upstate Pennsylvania” is everything in eastern Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and its immediately surrounding counties (Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery). So Reading, for example, is upstate. What Pennsylvania and New York have in common is that they have a major metropolitan center in their far southeastern corner. Other states with this geographic phenomenon (broadly speaking) are Florida (Miami), Wisconsin (Milwaukee), Michigan (Detroit) and Maine (Portland), but I never hear the word “upstate” used in reference to those states. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/66 "2012-06-01T17:11:11Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > Absolutely it exists. From the perspective of southeastern Pennsylvania, “upstate Pennsylvania” is everything in eastern Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and its immediately surrounding counties (Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery). So Reading, for example, is upstate. > > What Pennsylvania and New York have in common is that they have a major metropolitan center in their far southeastern corner. Other states with this geographic phenomenon (broadly speaking) are Florida (Miami), Wisconsin (Milwaukee), Michigan (Detroit) and Maine (Portland), but I never hear the word “upstate” used in reference to those states. Why is the southeastern corner so significant, as opposed to, say, the southwestern corner? Or a south-centrally located metro? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/67 "2012-06-01T17:15:07Z")
They’re the only places in those states that have, or could have, ocean ports, and that’s why they developed major cities with civilized cultures there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/68 "2012-06-01T17:25:36Z")
What’s the situation in Georgia? That’s a state where the major city (Atlanta) is located in the northern part of the state. Do people talk about Upstate Georgia? Or does the default reverse itself and Georgia gets divided into Atlanta and Downstate? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/69 "2012-06-01T17:34:01Z")
In college, I dated a girl who lived in Screven County (between Augusta and Savannah) and she just called that part of the state “southern Georgia.” Of course, [Georgia Southern](http://www.georgiasouthern.edu/) is right around the corner, so that may be a regional thing. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/70 "2012-06-01T17:58:19Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Let’s not forget [Downstate Medical Center](http://www.downstate.edu/), which is in Brooklyn, NY - which is downstate. Is there an Upstate Medical Center as well? Yep, used to work there. It was Upstate Medical Center when I was a kid. Then they renamed it SUNY Health Science Center (University Hospital) for a bit, though my family still called it Upstate. Now, I see, they just said, “Fuck it.” and called it Upstate University Hospital. ---
**Author:** ![steviep24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@steviep24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steviep24)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/71 "2012-06-01T18:35:17Z")
I live in Upstate NY. (actually in the western part of the state). The term upstate is used to refer to any part of the state not in the New York City metropolitan area (basically anywhere north of Westchester County). Culturally and mentally we have absolutely little in common with the NYC area and in a way upstate is kind of like (and should have been) a whole separate state. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/72 "2012-06-01T18:41:51Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > What Pennsylvania and New York have in common is that they have a major metropolitan center in their far southeastern corner. Other states with this geographic phenomenon (broadly speaking) are Florida (Miami), Wisconsin (Milwaukee), Michigan (Detroit) and Maine (Portland), but I never hear the word “upstate” used in reference to those states. Google hits for the phrase: “Upstate New York” 13,400,000 “upstate Pennsylvania” 52,400 “Upstate Wisconsin” 15,400 “Upstate Florida” 15,700 “Upstate Michigan” 32,000 “Upstate Maine” 24,400 Usage in NY is 3 orders of magnitude greater than usage in geographically similar states. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/73 "2012-06-01T19:11:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They’re the only places in those states that have, or could have, ocean ports, and that’s why they developed major cities with civilized cultures there. Why is it critical to have an ocean port? There are many states whose commercial centers are not historically ocean ports. Cincinnati is in the southwestern corner of Ohio. It was once a major river port and was the commercial and administrative center of the state. Or Cleveland, in the northeast, was a major lake port that was in a different era the state’s engine of commerce. Why not consider Minneapolis, Davenport, Omaha, Kansas City (Kansas), and other inland commercial hubs? And even if you go with the ocean port requirement, why neglect places like Savannah, Jacksonville, Pensacola, Biloxi, Mobile, New Orleans, Galveston, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland (Oregon), or Seattle. These are all places that are or at one point were commercial powerhouses for their regions. And, really, this whole issue doesn’t really have to do with literal directional geography. It has to do with terms that the commercial/administrative/cultural capital of a region uses to describe a nearby hinterland. There’s no logical reason why a term like “upstate” should be restricted to a state that has a major commercial center (or ocean port) in the southeast. Any major commercial metropolis can have an upstate. And for another matter, “north” and “up” aren’t synonymous anyway. “Up” is more logically applied to altitude than compass direction. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/74 "2012-06-01T19:21:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Up” is more logically applied to altitude than compass direction. This is certainly the case in South Carolina. And, as I understand it, the Nile River valley. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/75 "2012-06-03T03:02:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why is it critical to have an ocean port? There are many states whose commercial centers are not historically ocean ports. > … > Why not consider Minneapolis, Davenport, Omaha, Kansas City (Kansas), and other inland commercial hubs? It doesn’t have to be an ocean port. But I think all of them are _river ports_, and that transportation link is/was very critical to their economy. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/76 "2012-06-03T03:27:04Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > As for definitions, everyone north of Westchester and Rockland thinks they’re upstate, but until you get at least to the Catskills or Albany, everyone further out thinks the ones closer in are nuts. I’d say that most residents of Sullivan, Ulster and Dutchess counties don’t associate themselves with upstate. Upstate = Canada border or rednecks (no offense to that poster (can’t remember which) that throws a tizzy every time someone calls hicks rednecks). Even those in Delaware, Greene and Columbia are distinct from those way out in Eerie or Clinton. That’s why the whole concept of ‘downstate’ exists–to distinguish between The City, downstate (still within a couple hours of civilization), and upstate (those who are closer to Canada or the midwest than NYC). ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/77 "2012-06-03T22:16:47Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Is trolling really necessary? :rolleyes: > > With Michigan, Northern Michigan is the northern part of the Lower Penninsula, essentially everything north of the Detroit metropolitan area. The Upper Penninsula is the UP, and is not considered “Northern Michigan.” Western Michigan is basically the southwest corner of the Lower Penninsula. I would say it’s more everything north of Bay City. Flint is certainly north of the Detroit Metro Area, but not part of Northern Michigan, or Up North as it’s also commonly called. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/78 "2012-06-03T22:47:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They’re the only places in those states that have, or could have, ocean ports, and that’s why they developed major cities with civilized cultures there. That tends to explain Chicago, Milwaukee and Detroit. They are actually ocean ports. I read somewhere that, due to the curvature of the earth, Chicago is a shorter distance from Liverpool than Baltimore (consider that such a distance takes into account traveling through the Mackinac Straits). In the same sense, Duluth, Cleveland, Toronto and Montreal can be considered ocean ports. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/79 "2012-06-03T22:50:23Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > I have never, EVER heard anyone use “Upstate” to refer to Northern California. There’s NoCal, and SoCal, and the Central Valley (which is different from The Valley.) > > Upstate. Pshaw. Same here. Been in CA over 50 years and I have never heard any one say “up state” referring to northern CA. Maui has an “up country” that refers to the higher elevation portion of the island. ---
**Author:** ![brix11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@brix11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brix11)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501/80 "2012-06-04T14:07:36Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > Absolutely it exists. From the perspective of southeastern Pennsylvania, “upstate Pennsylvania” is everything in eastern Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and its immediately surrounding counties (Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery). So Reading, for example, is upstate. Having lived more in the south-central portions of Pennsylvania (Schuylkill and Lancaster counties), I can’t recall the term “Upstate Pennsylvania” being all that common…certainly not in the way one hears “Upstate New York.” That said, my wife’s family always talked about going “up county,” which meant, for them, traveling to their cabin “up” in Tioga “County,” which borders NY in Pennsylvania’s “Northern Tier” (another term I’ve heard for upstate PA). It drove me nuts, because I heard this not as a shortening of a phrase but as an adjective. I then started using the word “upstate” to describe our trips there, but I don’t think it ever really caught on. Incidentally, my father-in-law has [a great book of upstate PA folktales](http://www.amazon.com/Flatlanders-Ridgerunners-Folktales-Mountains-Pennsylvania/dp/0822953455) that poke fun at the differences between “ridgerunners” and “flatlanders.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-states-other-than-new-york-have-an-upstate/623501.md?page=5)