# Do stealth fighters do what they were supposed to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120 "2005-11-08T22:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pocelene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/0ea827/32.png) [@pocelene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocelene)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/1 "2005-11-08T22:34:11Z")
1. Do they really fly undetectably? 2. Do they actually fly war missions? (Or are they so expensive and high profile that they are being held in reserve to avoid being downed on a non-vital mission?) ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/2 "2005-11-08T22:44:05Z")
Don’t know exactly how well they avoid radar (although I understand it’s pretty darn well) but on your second question, the F117 got a lot of use during the first Gulf War. There was plenty of press about those missions. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/3 "2005-11-08T22:47:06Z")
1. Yes 2. Yes ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/4 "2005-11-08T22:49:47Z")
> [@pocelene](#): > > 1. Do they really fly undetectably? Based on standard RADAR configurations they are almost impossible to spot. IIRC, there is a way to detect them if the RADAR receivers (many of them are needed) isn’t at the same location that the signal is sent out from. ---
**Author:** ![pocelene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/0ea827/32.png) [@pocelene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocelene)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/5 "2005-11-08T22:50:29Z")
EJsGirl - since you seem to know everthing about these, are they worth it? I understand they cost n times the next available plane. Would we have been better off if we had n of those? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/6 "2005-11-08T22:52:12Z")
Didn’t BAe Systems come up with a type of RADAR that could track them? I seem to remember it being on the news years ago. IIRC, they tracked it at an airshow in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/7 "2005-11-08T22:55:29Z")
> [@pocelene](#): > > EJsGirl - since you seem to know everthing about these, are they worth it? I understand they cost n times the next available plane. Would we have been better off if we had n of those? Presumably part of the value of having a stealth fighter/bomber is in the propaganda value: we have a plane that you have no hope of detecting. ---
**Author:** ![pocelene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/0ea827/32.png) [@pocelene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pocelene)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/8 "2005-11-08T23:01:46Z")
Dominic Mulligan - so you’re saying that no matter how many regular planes we have to give up to get those bragging rights that it has to be worth it, that there is no breaking point to this equation, unlike all other armament decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/9 "2005-11-08T23:08:23Z")
Not only are they used, a F-117 got shot down in Yugoslavia in 1999. U.S. officials say that it was a 1 in a million shot by an unguided weapon. > **[U.S. Department of Defense](https://www.defense.gov/)** > > The Department of Defense is America's largest government agency. With our military tracing its roots back to pre-Revolutionary times, the department has grown and evolved with our nation. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/10 "2005-11-08T23:24:33Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > Presumably part of the value of having a stealth fighter/bomber is in the propaganda value: we have a plane that you have no hope of detecting. Isn’t there plenty of hope of detecting them if you use low frequencies, like down around 100 MHz. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/11 "2005-11-08T23:30:36Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > Didn’t BAe Systems come up with a type of RADAR that could track them? I seem to remember it being on the news years ago. IIRC, they tracked it at an airshow in the UK. I’d need more information about the circumstances at the air show, but it occurs to me that when flying in civilian air space on non-mission type stuff (presumably airshows are included) miitary stealth planes have to have their transponders on, and put anti-stealth panels on the plane to make them visible to air traffic control radar, so controllers can make sure nobody flies into them (the Air Force would be understandably upset if their fancy stealth fighter got broadsided by a wayward Cessna) As for if we’d be better off with the planes we could buy if we hadn’t spent money on the stealth fighter, I dunno. We don’t have a lot of stealth planes as it is, IIRC. Someone did the math a while back and figured out we could put several thousand Cessnas up in the air carrying an equivilant payload to what the B2 Spirit can carry, and cost less doing it, but somehow I don’t think a fleet of Cessnas is a viable option for bombing a country (especially since pilots are still obscenely expensive, even in a Cessna) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/12 "2005-11-08T23:33:43Z")
In addition to low frequency radar, there are[new detection algorithms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology) that increase the probability of detection in regular high frequency radars. So far we haven’t used stealth aircraft against anyone who has such capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/13 "2005-11-08T23:34:13Z")
> [@pocelene](#): > > 1. Do they really fly undetectably? No. It is quite possible to get a return off of a F-117. However, the angular, radiation deflecting shape and composite skin of the craft along with a judicious selection of fasteners and other hardware tend to scatter active radar, and its coloration (which is actually kind of a dull grey rather than black) and shrouded engines (which reduce thermal signiture) make it very difficult for both missile guidence systems and human operators to discriminate the Nighthawk from background return. However, under certain environmental conditions (ice accumulation) or when the bomb bay doors are open, they can show up on even obsolecent radar systems. By current technology they are extremely difficult to track, and tactics are selected to further reduce their exposure, which is good because while they have decent maneuoverability (allegedly about on par with an F16) they are not especially fast, particularly compared with supersonic interceptors, and tend to be unstable at low speeds owing to the inherent flight instability of the design. > [@pocelene](#): > > 1. Do they actually fly war missions? (Or are they so expensive and high profile that they are being held in reserve to avoid being downed on a non-vital mission?) Although classified as a fighter, and can be equiped to carry external air-to-air missiles (though this would largely nullify the advantage of stealth technology), the F-117 is actually a tactical bomber, not a fighter or ground attack craft. They have indeed flown “war” missions over Iraq and elsewhere. Remember those pictures of a bomb falling down a chimney? Either they were dropped by a Nighthawk, or (if David Mamet is to be believed) it was filmed on an 8" Lego model in a studio in Burbank. (“Is that true?” “Who the hell knows?”) the Air Force is of course somewhat close-mouthed about specific missions but lets out enough info to let the public know that we’re getting our money’s worth. Which begs the question; are we getting our money’s worth? At [an estimated cost](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117.htm) of $122M (FY1998) they aren’t cheap (although they make the B2 Stealth Bomber look like a yard-sale bargin in comparison); on the other hand, they allowed us to control the night sky over Bagdad in 1991 with utter impunity. At this point, they are the premier nighttime air superiority “fighter”, even though they don’t fight. There has only been one operational loss, during the 1993 Kosovo War, when one was downed by a Russian-built Nava missile. Sure, we could build 4 Eagles or 3 F/A-18s for the price, and they could operate in a wider range of environments and missions than the Nighthawk, but for what it does, it does the absolute best. A second-best military tends to be a very expensive luxury. Additionaly, the composite body and radar-defeating technology that was developed for the F-117 is being put to use on the F-22 and the JSF, so the development costs aren’t quite the evolutionary and stratigic dead-end that the B-2 seems to have become. I’d expect the Nighthawk to be maintained in operational inventory for the foreseeable future. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/14 "2005-11-08T23:48:42Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > (…they make the B2 Stealth Bomber look like a yard-sale bargin in comparison There was a joke when Matthias Rust landed in Red Square in 1987: Why do we need to spend two billion dollars to do what a German boy can do in a fifteen thousand-dollar Cessna? 😛😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/15 "2005-11-08T23:48:45Z")
During the Yugoslavian War, I read stories about how the B-2 bombers were only sent on a couple of “safe” runs, into areas where the Yugoslav anti-aircraft defenses had already been mostly suppressed, because they didn’t want to risk the embarrassment of losing a billion-dollar aircraft. They also have very high maintenance costs. (This comes from a former college professor of mine who actually helped develop the radar-reflecting skin of the B-2.) Apparently, the skin is a polymer material which has very poor water-resistance qualities. Consequently, the radar reflecting skin must be replaced regularly. My prof didn’t actually say the words “the B-2 is a useless boondoggle” but it wasn’t hard to figure out his opinion. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/16 "2005-11-09T00:10:57Z")
I have no idea how accurate this article is, but it’s a data point: > [@](#): > > [**The Pentagon’s 300-Billion-Dollar Bomb**](http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/01/stealth.html) > > …military experts interviewed by Mother Jones vigorously disagree. They charge that stealth planes are far from invisible; they are merely harder to detect on radar than conventional aircraft. They claim that the B-2 (and stealth planes in general) are less efficient as strategic weapons due to compromises and additional maintenance required by the stealth design. They say, also, that stealth craft are highly vulnerable to cheap defense measures readily available to potential adversaries. Indeed, during the fighting in Kosovo, Yugoslav anti-aircraft gunners downed an F-117 with a Russian-made missile whose technology dates back to 1964. Another F-117 was hit by anti-aircraft fire and had to limp back to base. > > …Stealth coatings present a host of other problems. To be effective, the plane’s surface must be kept perfectly slick. Exposure to rain or hail can cause nicks and scratches that dramatically increase the craft’s radar signature. Even optimal flying conditions take a toll on a plane’s skin. In a study released in June 1998, congressional investigators who observed a B-2 after one test flight reported that the plane “had damaged tape, caulk, paint, and heat tiles… In addition, we observed hydraulic fluid leaks beneath the aircraft that further damaged the caulk.” > > …The most fundamental problem, however, is that stealth planes are hardly undetectable to enemy defenses. The B-2 is nearly as visible as a 747 to a ground observer, one reason that it – like the F-117 – flies only at night. Furthermore, the Pentagon’s supposedly invisible stealth aircraft fly into action with the same radar-jamming escort planes that accompany conventional warplanes. Demand for jammers was so high during the Kosovo conflict that the Pentagon had to redeploy electronic warfare planes from Turkey, where they are being used in the ongoing air campaign against Iraq. “For stealth planes, jammers are just like American Express,” says a military analyst who works with Congress. “Don’t leave home without them.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/17 "2005-11-09T00:19:16Z")
I heard this anecdote, which may have happened or may have just been a joke. A B-2 Stealth bomber was departing the airshow at Oshkosh. When they checked in with ATC, ATC replied, ‘Roger, [stealth]. RADAR contact.’ I’ve heart they have a structure that can be raised for RADAR visibility, and I presume they have a transponder. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/18 "2005-11-09T00:59:52Z")
> [@](#): > > are they worth it? If they save one American life… ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/19 "2005-11-09T01:33:25Z")
IIRC, the Aegis cruisers can track them rather easily, but those things put out enough radiation to make you glow in the dark. Actually, from what I understand, ground based radar as well as the AWACS airborne radar can track them, but the big value is that missile seekers and fighter aircraft radars cannot. Thus, they’re only “invisible” to the things that can kill them, rather than completely unseen. A visual shot is another animal. I only fly Cessnas, but if I had to be a combat pilot, I’d want the absolute smallest radar cross section I could get, even if it didn’t make me invisible…it certainly wouldn’t hurt! **I’m no expert, blah blah blah** \* ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120/20 "2005-11-09T01:45:56Z")
> [@](#): > > If they save one American life… …then they were a poor use of money that might have saved a hundred American lives. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-stealth-fighters-do-what-they-were-supposed-to-do/330120.md?page=2)