# Do the claims of these two former porn actresses give you pause about porn? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206 "2012-09-19T19:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/21 "2012-09-19T20:30:57Z")
This sounds much like many of the charges Linda Lovelace, the star of Deep Throat made decades ago. FWIW, I suspect that there’s a large amount of truth in their claims, but also a tremendous amount of exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/22 "2012-09-19T20:34:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Not totally denied, there’s plenty of reason to believe their claims are true in some cases I’m wondering: would this motivate porn consumers to seek out what might be called “fair trade” porn? That is, there seem to be porn directors (like our own **MikeSouth** in the linked thread) who consider it important for actresses to be treated with respect and not to hire actresses who are obviously messed up or doing this under duress, etc. Is there or could there be some kind of semi-official “Woman-Safe Porn” certification or something of the sort, and would that incline more porn consumers to seek out movies bearing such a certification? That’s what the moderate wing of the animal-rights movement has been doing with some success, anyway: don’t go around telling everybody to give up meat because factory farms are so horrible for the animals, but instead go around talking up the benefits of consuming more limited amounts of meat from more humanely treated livestock. (Not that I wish to imply that we women should be thought of as mere livestock in the context of porn acting, of course. Just noting a possible parallel with another anti-exploitation movement where efforts at reform and voluntary support for better practices seem to be more effective than outright condemnation and calls for prohibition.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/23 "2012-09-19T20:59:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m wondering: would this motivate porn consumers to seek out what might be called “fair trade” porn? I kind of doubt it. I think porn users are very interested in the type of porn they want to see, not so much where it comes from. > [@](#): > > (Not that I wish to imply that we women should be thought of as mere livestock in the context of porn acting, of course. Just noting a possible parallel with another anti-exploitation movement where efforts at reform and voluntary support for better practices seem to be more effective than outright condemnation and calls for prohibition.) I think porn actresses would appreciate being considered livestock like mainstream actresses are. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/24 "2012-09-19T21:10:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > This outreach is motivated by the amazing love of God Instantly discredits anything they might say, as far as I’m concerned. Their word and their judgement is worthless; it’s guaranteed that they would lie without hesitation, and are likely outright delusional. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/25 "2012-09-19T21:12:29Z")
Careful of those Quakers. Bastards will knife you as soon as look at you. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/26 "2012-09-19T21:13:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Instantly discredits anything they might say, as far as I’m concerned. Their word and their judgement is worthless; it’s guaranteed that they would lie without hesitation, and are likely outright delusional. Oh, balls. DT, I would take it as a personal favor if you would leave such an over-broad claim out of this thread. I wanted to discuss the credibility of these two women, not slam Christians. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/27 "2012-09-19T21:13:43Z")
I think it’s possible there are certain endemic problems with the industry, but that they are not inherent. Porn can be prostitution or it can be a career. Frankly, I think any job that is taken out of desperation rather than aspiration is prostitution. If the idea were truly inherently degrading, we should be just as worried about the male actors. If it’s just a pragmatic issue, then reform and support is called for rather than rebuke ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/28 "2012-09-19T21:15:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m wondering: would this motivate porn consumers to seek out what might be called “fair trade” porn? This is spot on. Great idea! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/29 "2012-09-19T21:20:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, balls. > > DT, I would take it as a personal favor if you would leave such an over-broad claim out of this thread. I wanted to discuss the credibility of these two women, not slam Christians. Was it you who bolded the sentence **Der Trihs** quoted, or was it bolded in the original? Those of us who have been around awhile know that it’s the kind of statement that sets DT’s knee a-jerking. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/30 "2012-09-19T21:20:36Z")
A porn co-op might be a fun thing to have. Free access if you volunteer! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/31 "2012-09-19T21:22:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m wondering: would this motivate porn consumers to seek out what might be called “fair trade” porn? Dammit. You hit upon my business idea. I was going to suggest exactly this. I actually think that’s a really good idea, or at least marketing angle, in a way to differentiate one porn producer from another. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/32 "2012-09-19T21:24:05Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > I think it’s possible there are certain endemic problems with the industry, but that they are not inherent. Porn can be prostitution or it can be a career. **Frankly, I think any job that is taken out of desperation rather than aspiration is prostitution.** If the idea were truly inherently degrading, we should be just as worried about the male actors. If it’s just a pragmatic issue, then reform and support is called for rather than rebuke (italics mine) Such a claim robs the word prostitution of all meaning. I know a guy who lost a good corporate job, exhausted his unemployment benefits, and took a job at McDonald’s because keeping his kids fed was more important to him than his pride. Calling him a prostitute is ridiculous. Having said that … I can think of a woman I know who, faced with overwhelming bills, told me she had considered hooking. She was a grown woman and quite cognizant of the risks. I don’t know if she ever went through with it, but if she did, I would hesitate to call her exploited in the way that Lubben claims all female sex workers to be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/33 "2012-09-19T21:36:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, balls. > > DT, I would take it as a personal favor if you would leave such an over-broad claim out of this thread. I wanted to discuss the credibility of these two women, not slam Christians. It’s not _just_ slamming Christians; it’s that these people have a huge, blatantly obvious agenda. Would you trust Pepsi if it told you Coca-Cola caused cancer? And as far as bashing Christians goes; like it or not, they do have a history of being willing to lie and distort the facts about anything that contradicts their religious beliefs. Just look at the conflict over evolution. Your desire to be “fair” won’t make them any more honest. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/34 "2012-09-19T21:36:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, balls. > > DT, I would take it as a personal favor if you would leave such an over-broad claim out of this thread. I wanted to discuss the credibility of these two women, not slam Christians. If they cannot be at-large representatives of Christianity, then it is only fair to say that they also cannot be at-large representatives of the porn industry. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/35 "2012-09-19T21:36:36Z")
Pause? I always pause at the good parts. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/36 "2012-09-19T21:47:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s not _just_ slamming Christians; it’s that these people have a huge, blatantly obvious agenda. Would you trust Pepsi if it told you Coca-Cola caused cancer? I found Lubben & Case’s hyper-Christianity to be both distressing and counter-productive, and yes, I would say it hurts their case. (For that matter, I know more than a few Christians who would be dismayed by Lubben’s phrasing, particularly when she said her husband, in helping her rehabilitate her sexuality, was “Jesus” to her.) It was the general slur against Chritians that bothers me. > [@](#): > > And as far as bashing Christians goes; like it or not, they do have a history of being willing to lie and distort the facts about anything that contradicts their religious beliefs. Just look at the conflict over evolution. Your desire to be “fair” won’t make them any more honest. I didn’t use the word fair. I simply do not wish the thread to be derailed by an anti-Christianity rant. I’m perfectly capable of pointing out the logical inconsistencies in the Christian faith; I’m perfectly capable of pointing out the moral failings of many Christians. But this isn’t the thread for that. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > If they cannot be at-large representatives of Christianity, then it is only fair to say that they also cannot be at-large representatives of the porn industry. Well, they’re not representing the porn industry; they’re criticizing it. Perhaps you mean that they cannot claim to have had entirely typical experiences while in porn. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Was it you who bolded the sentence **Der Trihs** quoted, or was it bolded in the original? Those of us who have been around awhile know that it’s the kind of statement that sets DT’s knee a-jerking. I cannot answer this question. I do not see any bolding in Der Trihs’s initial post at this time, nor did I notice any when I first responded. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/37 "2012-09-19T21:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s assume that Luben and Case are giving a truthful account of their own experiences. That’s fine, though I think the point being made about the fact that they had very limited experience in the industry around 2 decades ago should also factor in. > [@](#): > > Do you think it’s fair to extrapolate from that to a general condemnation of the pornography industry? The porn industry is huge, with a very wide range of specialty niche and broad ranging types of porn. Myself, I’m more into the amateur type porn, and I’m pretty sure no one is putting a gun to most of the actors or actresses I normally watch. More professional type porn…well, maybe in some cases it’s as these women suggest. I’m guessing a lot of aspiring actors and actresses that go to places like Hollywood wind up in the porn industry because of lack of prospects, funds or pressure. But I doubt it’s the norm, especially today. One has only to watch an episode of the HBO series Cathouse to see that there are a lot of women who jump at the chance for some quick cash. They may regret their decision later, but they don’t seem to be being forced into it. So, long answer shortened, no…I don’t think it’s fair to extrapolate these experiences, even if they are totally real and unmodified with time and changing inclination, into a general condemnation of the porn industry. > [@](#): > > If so, does that give you any qualms about partaking of cinematic porn? Why or why not? None at all, to be honest. As I said, the porn I generally favor is almost surly not in the category that these women were talking about. So, even if one assumes that their experience was indicative (which I don’t btw), and even if one assumes that the industry today is the exact same as it was 20 odd years ago (same), I don’t think I’d have any qualms about watching the porn I enjoy. Now, if I saw an interview with, say, Samantha Anderson where she says she is being forced at gun point or some other coercive means to participate in porn movies, then I’d probably have some qualms about watching HER movies in the future…or any of the other people in the porn movies I enjoy. It would be a specific condemnation though, not a general one against the entire industry because of the experiences of one actress or actor. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/38 "2012-09-19T21:51:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I didn’t use the word fair. I simply do not wish the thread to be derailed by an anti-Christianity rant. I’m perfectly capable of pointing out the logical inconsistencies in the Christian faith; I’m perfectly capable of pointing out the moral failings of many Christians. But this isn’t the thread for that. No, this isn’t a thread about the inconsistencies or moral failings of Christianity. This is however a thread about how we react to the allegations of an organization with a blatant Christian agenda, which means that their trustworthiness is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/39 "2012-09-19T21:55:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, this isn’t a thread about the inconsistencies or moral failings of Christianity. This is however a thread about how we react to the allegations of an organization with a blatant Christian agenda, which means that their trustworthiness is relevant. I don’t generally agree with DT on much, but he’s got a point this time, even if it was a bit over the top in it’s presentation. The veracity of the claim is certainly going to factor into most folks answers, and the fact that these women have an obvious agenda, coupled with how long ago they participated, the fact that they weren’t in the industry that long and the fact that they admit to already being prostitutes all should be part of the discussion…and, even the aspect DT brings up, that they have had a sea change in their outlook and have found Jesus, and are working for an organization with a Christian outlook and agenda. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/40 "2012-09-19T22:26:06Z")
It just seems like hair splitting to me. Is there really anyone who _doesn’t_ see prostitution and porn, as refuge for the damaged? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206.md?page=3)