# Do the claims of these two former porn actresses give you pause about porn? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206 "2012-09-19T19:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/81 "2012-09-21T11:58:17Z")
> [@](#): > > So if women can’t turn tricks then childhood sexual abuse will end? No one said or implied this, at all, obviously, so I fail to see your point, whatever it is. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/82 "2012-09-21T12:27:23Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > You’re making my point for me now. And exploitation of the vulnerable isn’t exactly the high moral ground. Viewing pornography and participating in prostitution can certainly be viewed as exploiting the vulnerable/damaged. You would have to explain why it’s exploitation first. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/83 "2012-09-21T15:06:08Z")
Real movie actresses, you know movies you win Oscar awards for, have also claimed sexual coercion and sexual harassment behind the scenes in the course of their employment. The term “casting couch” came from somewhere, I have no clue how prevalent it is right now but it certainly existed. Some have been very open about what they had to do to get acting jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/84 "2012-09-21T16:17:10Z")
There are a couple of things going on in this thread and I think it may be better to separate them and see if they can be hashed out individually. 1. Women who work in porn/prostitution are overwhelmingly drug addicted/abuse victims/runaways/etc. 2. People with these conditions are impaired in their decision making process when it comes to choosing to perform/prostitute themselves. 1 is pretty uncontroversial to me. Every measure we have, from first hand accounts, to police reports, social worker reports, health care provider records, etc. pretty clearly indicates this. I think 2 is the underlying assumption of the thread and I think it’s on much shakier ground. It implies there is a frame of mind, emotional state, financial state, or background which is necessary to make legitimate life decisions. As if drug addicts are _per se_ incapable of informed consent. Their addiction overrides their sovereignty over their bodies and their decisions become irrelevant. Sexwork is assumed to be a irrational decision by definition and any other factor which may have influenced them must have been the prime mover of the choice. There are clear instances where drug use should be considered to invalidate consent, date rape drugs for example. But addiction, bad childhood experiences, abuse, etc. are far more common than sexwork, so there exists a pool of people in these circumstances who earn their livings in some other way. Do we assume a ditch digger with a drug problem is incapable of giving consent to dig ditches and is being exploited by his boss? What about the hairdresser from a broken home? Victim of the salon owner? The office clerk with an abusive husband/boyfriend, is she a tragic figure whenever she sits down to type a memo? Should you feel bad when you use a toilet connected to the sewer line the ditch digger helped lay? When you get a haircut? Read a memo? There are clearly times when you should choose to use or avoid a product or service based on how it is produced/managed. Boycotting slave-produced cotton in the early 19th century would have been completely reasonable, even good. I’m not convinced the factors which weigh in the decision to undertake sexwork for these women suspend their sovereignty to the point where the good/service produced is tainted with exploitation. People are able to make good decisions in bad circumstances and bad decisions in good circumstances. Offering an addict a way to earn money is not necessarily a bad thing any more than offering a hungry person a way to earn money is. It certainly CAN be, but it isn’t necessarily. So, even while I accept the first premise, the widespread nature of bad circumstances surrounding decisions to engage in sexwork, I don’t agree they dictate the decision. I believe there is still free will involved. Of course there are types of sexwork for which this would not be true, trafficked women/children/etc. The mainstream stuff is almost certainly a result of a consensual contractual agreement and is no more, OR LESS, exploitative than rental agreements, cell phone contracts, or any number of other contracts people willingly enter into every day. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/85 "2012-09-21T16:19:24Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > No one said or implied this, at all, obviously, so I fail to see your point, whatever it is. I’m not sure what you were saying in your post, but you made the link between damage and eventual career. Eliminating the career doesn’t prevent the damage is my point. I have no idea what you were trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/86 "2012-09-21T19:12:09Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > There are a couple of things going on in this thread and I think it may be better to separate them and see if they can be hashed out individually. > > 1. Women who work in **porn/prostitution** are overwhelmingly drug addicted/abuse victims/runaways/etc. As soon as you said this, you discredited yourself completely. While many porn stars (I see no evidence to even say “most” here) are/were prostitutes, the vast majority of prostitutes have never bee in porn. The demographics of these two groups are not comparable, and lumping them together is not useful in the slightest. Though I suppose, in some sense, your statement is true–since exploited prostitues almost certainly “overwhelmingly” outnumber high-class escorts, legal prostitutes, and porn starlets combined. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/87 "2012-09-22T10:08:32Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > 1. Women who work in porn/prostitution are overwhelmingly drug addicted/abuse victims/runaways/etc. > … > 1 is pretty uncontroversial to me. Every measure we have, from first hand accounts, to police reports, social worker reports, health care provider records, etc. pretty clearly indicates this. You’re overlooking the huge selection bias here. Women in porn/prostitution who aren’t drug addicted, abuse victims or runaways are less likely to come to the attention of police, social workers or health care providers, so they’re less likely to be included in those measures. In relation to prostitution, at least, there’s enough research to know that their number is more than trivial, but there isn’t enough to know how it compares to the number who do fall into those categories. Simply put, most of them are off the radar and we have no idea how many there are. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/88 "2012-09-22T10:57:39Z")
It gives me pause about society, and how screwed up the whole thing is if something as natural as sexuality is forced into the fringes of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/89 "2012-09-22T11:16:14Z")
Mmmm…you folks make some good arguments both ways. Which is why I enjoy SD. I’m no porn connoisseur, nor am I an ardent viewer of all that thrills. My occasional viewing and reading over the years suggests that many women are initially drawn by the money and later caught by drug use. Over and above that, once they are in the pornography industry the behaviours and lifestyle becomes normal so they feel vindicated and validated. Within that microcosm life is great. Those who leave and want a “normal” career need an excuse so rightly or wrongly they blame drugs money the mafia etc. Probably true but its a useful blind for a period of exuberant life which they embraced wholeheartedly. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/90 "2012-09-22T11:23:12Z")
There are pornographic activities which I find abhorrent. Involving dogs, rapes, children… I felt physically sick the two times I momentarily saw a dog. But at a milder level there is still stuff I cannot believe a self-confident young woman with dignity would suffer. Its termed hard core and involves violence to the woman. I have to think drug addiction or emotional abasement is the cause of a person allowing themselves to be so vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/91 "2012-09-22T12:40:05Z")
> [@](#): > > once they are in the pornography industry the behaviours and lifestyle becomes normal so they feel vindicated and validated. Within that microcosm life is great. Says you! Got any evidence to back that up? You have however, I believe, produced the very justification/rationalization that most porn/prostitution users have. Ranks right up there with, ‘She needs the money? Who am I to stand in judgment?’, and, the ever popular, ‘no one is holding a gun to her head!’. When the truth is probably closer to, ‘No one’s holding a gun to her head - anymore!’ ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/92 "2012-09-22T13:32:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s nothing new. The same claims are denied by other current and former porn stars. Not totally denied, there’s plenty of reason to believe their claims are true in some cases, but it doesn’t fit with the statements of others as a way to describe the entire porn industry. Linda Lovelace went down this path, before changing her mind and returning to the porn industry before her death. I challenge your last statement. Cite? In her books, Linda stated she would never return to porn. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/93 "2012-09-22T13:42:20Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I challenge your last statement. Cite? > > In her books, Linda stated she would never return to porn. A quick search brought up[this](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2120823/How-Deep-Throat-star-Linda-Lovelaces-tragic-life-modern-morality-tale.html): > [@](#): > > But she had one more ideological U-turn left. In 2001, the vociferous anti-porn campaigner stripped down to sexy lingerie — aged 52 — for Leg Show, an adult magazine. > ‘There’s nothing wrong with looking sexy as long as it’s done with taste,’ she said, to counter the inevitable accusation of hypocrisy. Friends insist she was simply desperate for cash. Apparently she was shopping around for similar opportunities as a grand dame of porn before her untimely death. She became disillusioned with the anti-porn crowd once she wasn’t making money off of them anymore. This was a very messed up woman. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/94 "2012-09-24T19:49:36Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > You’re overlooking the huge selection bias here. Women in porn/prostitution who aren’t drug addicted, abuse victims or runaways are less likely to come to the attention of police, social workers or health care providers, so they’re less likely to be included in those measures. In relation to prostitution, at least, there’s enough research to know that their number is more than trivial, but there isn’t enough to know how it compares to the number who do fall into those categories. Simply put, most of them are off the radar and we have no idea how many there are. Depends on what you’re considering as radar. There have been forums, since the internet began, where prostitutes, escorts, porn stars, etc. have been active members and sharing their own stories. There are thousands of first-hand accounts of how and why they became escorts, even from those women who never entered a courtroom, social worker’s office, or emergency room as a result of sexwork. Some of the more famous/infamous sexworkers/ex-sexworkers have had books published about their experiences. These are the “first hand accounts” I was speaking of when I said it looks like the industry is overwhelmingly composed of women who have fallen through the social cracks. Women who are uneducated/abused/addicted/runaways/etc. have been sharing their stories of why they entered into the ranks of prostitution and pornography for decades. Is it a perfect sample? No, of course not. But it’s not a coerced sample, and it’s as raw and honest as you are willing to face. It’s a common question wherever these women congregate, “why do you do it?” and the answer has been given by the thousands, if you are willing to look. They aren’t nearly as off the radar as you may think. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/95 "2012-09-25T06:43:31Z")
**Mtgman** , there are equally loads and loads of sex workers and former sex workers posting their stories online which confirm that they were _not_ abused, exploited or addicted. They’re not difficult to find, either, if you’re willing to look. But trawling the internet for selective samples is no substitute for real research, and until we have that real research, we don’t have the tools to make an accurate assessment of which “type” of sex worker is more typical. If indeed there is such a thing as more typical. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/96 "2012-09-25T23:13:56Z")
Even assuming the porn = prostitution claim, I’ve been arguing recently that prostitution should be legalized so it can be better regulated. Given that, why would I have a problem with the idea? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/97 "2012-09-26T05:23:42Z")
i believe there is or was a prostitute or actress on this forum a while back…? who has some first person insight? i know two people who are very amateur in that scene. both are just nymphos. they crave a special kind of attention and have few inhibitions. they also flaunt that part of their sexuality because they like the control. if anyone feels like they are exploiting someone else, it’s these girls feeling like they have the total upper hand. i know a few others who model in erotic stuff. they too have just \*immense \*libidos. i’m sure there are some people who are downtrodden and taken advantage of, but i know most mainstream stuff pays really, really well, hence the draw. i think about ethics in art (we’ll ostensibly lump paaaarn into that for the sake of this conversation). ((parn is not art per se)) i listen to a lot of metal music and there are some really reprehensible people involves in some scenes. there’s the whole encouraging people to burn churches bit, then the one who killed his band mate, then the one who killed a homosexual, and in a band i actually really liked–a dude was convicted of some kid of pederasty. while nearly all the things people say in metal is moody, trite bullshit for the sake of the aura of the music, it kind of bugs me to listen to people who are being a little too serious about that shit. esp if they really killed people (the ones who killed the gay guy are remorseless about it). i’ll admit, once i know the people involved in the art are personal shitsacks shaped like humans, i get really turned off to their art. this is why i rarely seek out personal info on bands or artists. i FB friended a few professional artists who i really admired, but seeing their true selves (ignorant, hate-baiting or just crass) makes me kind of turned off to their art. which i think is bullshit. but i can’t help it. ETA: i also became close friends with at least two singers of various bands i really liked and they were insufferably idealistic, new-agey and upbeat. it tainted everything for me just the same as the actually evil ones. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/98 "2012-09-26T07:32:38Z")
" financially exploitative"? They make a lot more than I do. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/99 "2012-10-08T05:00:25Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > It gives me pause about society, and how screwed up the whole thing is if something as natural as sexuality is forced into the fringes of it. Then what about stealing or racism or sexism or rape–all of those are natural, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206/100 "2012-10-08T08:14:17Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > It gives me pause about society, and how screwed up the whole thing is if something as natural as sexuality is forced into the fringes of it. Honestly, I don’t understand what you mean - but I’m outside the USA. When I was in the US porn movie theatres existed, sex shops, and XXX video rentals. Plus most of the porn internet sites appear to be American based. Erotica and pornography are mainstream so far as I can tell. What does bother me is the fringe stuff - involving animals, rape, and children. In no sense can such sexual activity be termed natural and if that is banned - the world is a slightly better place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-claims-of-these-two-former-porn-actresses-give-you-pause-about-porn/635206.md?page=6)