# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/221 "2020-12-07T18:17:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Posters saying they got PMs from women saying they left for that reason not good enough for you?
_“I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names …”_
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/222 "2020-12-07T18:18:04Z")
Eve is right here, she posted in this very thread.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/223 "2020-12-07T18:23:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> I said due to misogyny, not trans. And yes, I do assume that if a poster left the board due to harassment, they would either make a public announcement or PM a Mod, not PM a random poster.
You’d assume wrong. First of all, no moderators have weighed in on whether women PMed them regarding this issue, so you have no idea what was or wasn’t said to moderators. As a poster I received many such PMs. At one point there was an entire internal loop about it.
Wasn’t the Giraffe Boards prompted by a bunch of women getting fed up over here? Or is it that they all decided to leave for the Giraffe boards when it became clear nothing here would change? My memory fails me.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/224 "2020-12-07T18:31:17Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> You’d assume wrong. First of all, no moderators have weighed in on whether women PMed them regarding this issue, so you have no idea what was or wasn’t said to moderators. As a poster I received many such PMs.
Many? How many? From whom?
Look, if we are gonna change the rules, there is only one good reason to do so: _because it is the right thing to do._
But you seem to want us to change the rules because you have a secret list.
I want to change the rules because **it is the right thing to do.**
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/225 "2020-12-07T18:32:52Z")
Yes, I seem to remember that. I am not denying that at all. In fact, that is more or less what I said.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/226 "2020-12-07T18:37:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> You are absolutely entitled to your opinion that it is not a problem here. On the other hand, if you find yourself in a minority you might want to reconsider that perhaps it’s more of a problem than you realize.
See, and that is why this is a bad thing to debate. Read my damn posts here. I have said over and over and over that we should change the rules because _it is the right thing to do._ But somehow all that you heard is that _“it is not a problem here”_ which is odd, because I never said that, in fact I said the exact opposite several times.
My point is- we should change the rules **because it is the right thing to do.** Not because someone has a "secret list. " That is a terrible reason to do _anything._
I dont think Tailgunner Joe had a secret list, I dont think Santa has a secret list- I dont think there is a secret list here either.
Let do the Right thing for the rRght reasons.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/227 "2020-12-07T18:41:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> See, and that is why this is a bad thing to debate. Read my damn posts here. I have said over and over and over that we should change the rules because _it is the right thing to do._
That’s not what you said in that point. You said that you wanted a list of posters who had stated X in format Y or you weren’t willing to concede there’s a problem.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/228 "2020-12-07T18:44:27Z")
If I said that, find that post. Well, you cant, because I never said that.
Here is my _real_ post:
_Sure, like Eve left due to misogyny… or not according to Eve herself. Right here. In this very thread._
_Give me a list of 100 posters who left and their posts saying they left due to misogyny._
_Look there are good solid reasons to reign in transphobic posts and misogyny without making up a mass exodus. When things like that are done it weakens your case, not make it stronger._
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/229 "2020-12-07T18:45:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> But you seem to want us to change the rules because you have a secret list.
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/230 "2020-12-07T18:45:34Z")
What part of …
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Give me a list of 100 posters who left _and their posts_ saying they left due to misogyny.
… constitutes NOT asking for a list?
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/231 "2020-12-07T18:49:33Z")
**Modhat** : Enough with List or no List. This is a hijack of the thread.
This is directed at everyone involved.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/232 "2020-12-07T19:13:13Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> Wasn’t the Giraffe Boards prompted by a bunch of women getting fed up over here? Or is it that they all decided to leave for the Giraffe boards when it became clear nothing here would change? My memory fails me.
It has been brought to my attention via PM that I was completely wrong about this. Like, I couldn’t possibly be more wrong. I think I was confusing two different events. Sorry.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/233 "2020-12-07T21:02:36Z")
A post was merged into an existing topic: [Mist and Murk in the MMP!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mist-and-murk-in-the-mmp/926785/334)
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/234 "2020-12-07T21:13:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> And yes, I do assume that if a poster left the board due to harassment, they would either make a public announcement or PM a Mod
There was a long thread, mostly by women, about how women felt uncomfortable here due to the routine sexism of the board.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/235 "2020-12-07T21:18:34Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> many comments and questions made in good faith are shocking and offensive, but the _intent_ was not to offend.
Every time somebody walks through this corridor people step on their foot. Some of them had no intention to step on the foot. Do you think the foot hurts any less?
Maybe something should be done about the design of the corridor, if the current setup causes lots of unintentional stepping on feet.
> [@Ruken](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > So it’s been done 15 years ago.
> >
> > > Can we bring those threads, or the applicable information from those threads, up front and center so people don’t have to do it all over and over again?
>
> Then we lose the benefit of active participation, interaction with posters we are used to currently interacting with, and relevant current events.
That’s a benefit to some. It’s a detriment to others.
> [@Ruken](#):
>
> And nobody _has to do it again_ .
If they don’t, then you won’t get that interaction. And, if they don’t, they’re then allowing potentially toxic information to be repeated on the boards, unchallenged.
So it does seem to me that you’re trying to force people to keep going over this, over and over and over again.
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> some of the most interesting aspects and challenges of the conversation are taking place as part of public policy, health policy and research.
Seems to me that we could discuss public policy, health policy, and research related to transgender issues without discussing whether transgender people exist, or whether a specific person who identifies as transgender is to be allowed to do so (by random posters, that is; pointing out that a government is or is not allowing it is another sort of subject.)
@Thudlow_Boink, thanks for posting links to the old threads. I’ll read them. I don’t feel very well educated myself, on this subject.
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### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/236 "2020-12-07T21:42:20Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Seems to me that we could discuss public policy, health policy, and research related to transgender issues without discussing whether transgender people exist, or whether a specific person who identifies as transgender is to be allowed to do so (by random posters, that is; pointing out that a government is or is not allowing it is another sort of subject.)
Exactly. I feel like too many people are thinking in terms of extremes, either everything is on the table or we can’t talk about it all.
I would be very supportive of a rule that certain statements are accepted and not open for debate. IMO, the list would include the following, but I’d rather it be mostly based on the recommendations of any trans posters willing to contribute.
1. Transgender people exist
2. Being transgender is not a mental illness
3. The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
4. Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting. Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash).
As you say, this still leaves plenty of room for discussion.
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### Author:  [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/237 "2020-12-07T21:43:29Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Every time somebody walks through this corridor people step on their foot. Some of them had no intention to step on the foot. Do you think the foot hurts any less?
>
> Maybe something should be done about the design of the corridor, if the current setup causes lots of unintentional stepping on feet.
That would be a great solution if the corridor itself were somehow the problem. What we’re discussing is people who haven’t learned to walk properly yet, some of who may not even know it yet.
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### Author:  [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/238 "2020-12-07T21:43:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Every time somebody walks through this corridor people step on their foot. Some of them had no intention to step on the foot. Do you think the foot hurts any less?
Every time I walk through this corridor my foot hurts. Maybe it’s the fact I’ve got gout that makes my foot hurt, and I shouldn’t expect all corridors in the world to be layered with cotton wool.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/239 "2020-12-07T21:57:40Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> There was a long thread, mostly by women, about how women felt uncomfortable here due to the routine sexism of the board.
Not just one. There have been countless threads about the treatment of women on these boards. I just found one as recently as 2018. Anyone who believes this has not been an issue has not been paying attention.
I think trans people have been less likely to speak out because they feel even less safe than cis women. Statistically there is probably only a small number of posters who identify as trans.
If we care at all about “fighting ignorance” which is, I admit, questionable, it would behoove us to create an environment where actual trans people want to post. I don’t think people walking away for other reasons and people walking away due to hate speech are remotely comparable. And of course the entire point of mentioning that trans posters have walked away is to reinforce the fact that **it is the right thing to do.** I don’t think these are mutually exclusive concepts, I think one is predicated on the other.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/240 "2020-12-07T22:06:14Z")
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> - Transgender people exist
> - Being transgender is not a mental illness
> - The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
> - Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting. Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash).
This looks like a solid foundation to me. Though of course the 4th bullet has to be cleaned up a little. Make a mistake, no problem, let them know. Persist in the mistake, you’re being a jerk. Note, followed by warnings.
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