# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/241 "2020-12-07T22:23:52Z")
> [@psychonaut](#):
>
> That would be a great solution if the corridor itself were somehow the problem. What we’re discussing is people who haven’t learned to walk properly yet, some of who may not even know it yet
Seems to me that what we’re discussing is not so much whether such people exist, but whether this particular corridor can be designed so as to discourage them from stepping on others.
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/242 "2020-12-07T22:32:51Z")
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
I don’t think that this point should necessarily be closed to discussion. Even though _we_ accept it as true, it will be genuinely confusing to many people and those people will bring up what they see as a contradiction in their understanding. If the debate is just closed, then those people will just leave and not change their mind. I don’t necessarily consider someone not understanding this point as being the same thing as that person being transphobic. As for me, my understanding of this concept came from the contentious JK Rowling thread. If that thread was just shutdown and closed, I likely would have not changed my preconceived notions.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/243 "2020-12-07T23:09:12Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> Are all of these the same thing? I have no problem with transgender people using whatever bathroom they want to use, serving in the military, I’m pleased as punch to refer to them by whatever pronouns they choose, I’d like to make sure they’re protection from discrimination in housing, education, & the workforce, and I’d like rules here that prohibited people from deliberately misgendering trans people. But I do have some concerns when it comes to transwomen competing in women’s sports. But I don’t think that means I’m denying the validity of transgender identities.
Aside from misgendering, I’m talking about when someone makes one of those arguments based on the presumption that transgender identities are less valid than binary gender identities. Is that presumption fair ground for debate? If not, what happens to all the opinions that are built on top of it?
Here’s a scorecard, not that everyone’s opinion is equal, but just as a summary of this one sub-topic. I apologize if I mischaracterized anyone or left anyone out.
#### Would prefer to allow that debate
- **Chronos** (moderator of General Questions, Cafe Society, and the Game Room),
- **DemonTree** ,
- **filmore** (would only allow discussion on the _utility_ of name-identity-pronoun inconsistency, I think),
- **Miller** (according to **BigT** ’s recollection; **Miller** moderates The Pit),
- **octopus** ,
- **psychonaut** (I think - not sure if he is okay with full-on _debates_ where both sides argue that the other is _wrong_),
and **Ruken**
#### Would prefer to ban that debate
- **Babale** ,
- **Banquet\_Bear** ,
- **BigT** ,
- **BippityBoppityBoo** ,
- **Boudicca90** ,
- **DrDeth** ,
- **JRDelirious** ,
- **k9bfriender** ,
- **Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness** ,
- **MrDibble** ,
- and **Rick\_Kitchen**
I can’t tell what @74westy, @Broomstick, @QuickSilver, and @Spice_Weasel think about a topic ban. Their posts are focused more on countering vitriol and toxic behavior (like misgendering) than banning or not banning any particular topic of debate. I think everyone agrees with them except maybe **DemonTree** who [has argued against](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/927272/70) banning misgendering. **Banquet\_Bear** accused @RickJay of intentional misgendering, which **RickJay** denied (and said the accusation was off-topic), but we don’t know his opinion on whether it is appropriate. **What\_Exit** and **puzzlegal** seem to agree that misgendering is inappropriate, the former explicitly opined it is covered by rule #1 “don’t be a jerk”. Those two mods and **raventhief** have indicated that they want to be more inclusive to transgender members, but I don’t think they’ve come down on either side of the question when it comes to a topic ban.
~Max
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/244 "2020-12-07T23:41:02Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> which **RickJay** denied
…this isn’t accurate, but I don’t want to drag the thread off topic. But the posts are up thread if anyone wants to read them.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/245 "2020-12-07T23:50:44Z")
I would not recommend a topic ban. I did say that at some point in this thread.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/246 "2020-12-07T23:53:57Z")
Sorry! Must have missed this.
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> But I’m not recommending a topic ban, I don’t think any mod is.
~Max
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/247 "2020-12-07T23:54:58Z")
No problem
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/248 "2020-12-07T23:55:39Z")
Yes, I know and so?
Let us ban the Trans subject _as a debate,_ and clamp down in other forums (except Cafe Society) on blatant sexim/ misogyny.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/249 "2020-12-07T23:57:09Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> I don’t think that this point should necessarily be closed to discussion. Even though _we_ accept it as true, it will be genuinely confusing to many people and those people will bring up what they see as a contradiction in their understanding. If the debate is just closed, then those people will just leave and not change their mind.
Closed for _debate_, but not for education.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/250 "2020-12-08T00:03:31Z")
Do you acknowledge that refusing to institute a ban is effectively rejecting the arguments presented by all those people?
- Rejecting the argument that questioning the validity of transgender identities is inherently a personal attack
- Rejecting the argument that it is more important to make members like **Boudicca90** feel safe by banning the topic
- Rejecting the argument that questioning the validity of transgender identities in general is beyond the bounds of civil discourse
- Rejecting the argument that an unfair or prejudiced distinction between cis-gender and transgender constitutes gender discrimination worthy of moderation
- etc.
If you’re not comfortable rejecting all of these, I think you should talk to some of the people in this topic who presented those arguments. ETA: Or I can argue on their behalf, because I believe refusing to institute a topic ban implies all the above.
~Max
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/251 "2020-12-08T00:06:54Z")
Maybe I don’t understand what we’re talking about. What are we talking about banning?
I am supporting these ideas are not up for debate:
- Transgender people exist
- Being transgender is not a mental illness
- The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
- Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting.
- Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash).
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/252 "2020-12-08T00:10:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> And yes, I do assume that if a poster left the board due to harassment, they would either make a public announcement or PM a Mod,
Why would they do any of that?
Seems more likely to me that such a person would just _stop posting_ and leave without saying anything. It’s not like an exit interview is required. I’d think the few who actually made an announcement would be the exception.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/253 "2020-12-08T00:10:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> - Being transgender is not a mental illness
> - The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
These two items imply that transgender identities are as _valid_ as binary gender identities. A person who believed transgender identities were lesser than traditional gender identities would probably disagree with the first item, and would almost certainly disagree with the second.
I’m asking if you consider it unacceptable for members to debate whether transgender identities are _valid_. All four of your bulletin items can be accommodated as a matter of polite discourse, while still presenting arguments that deny or disparage the basic validity of transgender identities.
~Max
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/254 "2020-12-08T00:12:18Z")
I cant reply to this, see the above Mod note.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/255 "2020-12-08T00:14:53Z")
I do think think that will be my recommendation, but I’m not quite ready yet. I’m waiting on feedback from a few other people before I make a presentation.
And **Broomstick** , **DrDeth** , I did **modnote** to drop this side issues. Thank you **DrDeth**.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/256 "2020-12-08T00:17:22Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> I do think think that will be my recommendation, but I’m not quite ready yet.
What are you referring to when you write “that”? Something I wrote or the five points you wrote in post #251?
~Max
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/257 "2020-12-08T00:18:47Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I can’t tell what @74westy, @Broomstick, @QuickSilver, and @Spice_Weasel think about a topic ban.
Well, just to clarify my position: I prefer to allow discussion on even very controversial or difficult topics, BUT if a situation/topic arises where the participants can not remain civil and respectful (or the trolls march in) then I’d like the mods to intervene. I recognize that sometimes that will result in the closure of a topic and there may be some topics so volatile, the chances of a discussion remaining civil so unlikely, that it is in the better interests of all here that such topics be banned either on a temporary or permanent basis. I just want to keep such a banned list as short as possible.
We have discussed, in a civil manner, some very volatile subjects. Other threads have turned into a clusterf\*\*\* over something relatively innocuous.
I also think standards should be looser in the Pit, but not absent altogether.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/258 "2020-12-08T00:20:16Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> And **Broomstick** , **DrDeth** , I did **modnote** to drop this side issues. Thank you **DrDeth**.
My apologies and my bad. It will not happen again.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/259 "2020-12-08T00:21:41Z")
I think the 5 points from **Troutman** that I quoted, and what you wrote that I replied to overlap.
I will stress, I consider myself pretty unknowledgeable on the entire subject and effectively getting a crash course here. I had stayed away from all the threads that lead to this one until the **YWTF** flags piled up.
Outside of meeting **Eve** once and a few friends of friends in New Orleans I don’t even know any trans people and would have insulted by accident some of them around the time of Jenner’s transition.
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> My apologies and my bad. It will not happen again.
No problem, fast moving thread, easy to miss.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/260 "2020-12-08T00:23:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Well, just to clarify my position: I prefer to allow discussion on even very controversial or difficult topics,
I totally agree, we can discuss and educate. But these four items should not be open for debate- either accept them or dont argue otherwise.
\*\*\* Transgender people exist\*\*
\*\*\* Being transgender is not a mental illness\*\*
\*\*\* The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.\*\*
\*\*\* Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting.\*\*
\*\*\* Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash)\*\*
Emphasis on **Deliberately**. That needs to be very clear,
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