# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 14
### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/261 "2020-12-08T00:24:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> I am supporting these ideas are not up for debate:
>
> - Transgender people exist
> - Being transgender is not a mental illness
> - The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
> - Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting.
> - Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash).
I’m on with ya here.
And yes, the existence and validity of a trans person’s own identity is not a debate subject or an interesting thought experiment. Trans is.
IMO things such as the sufficiency of the available set of pronouns and whether people should continue to default to she/he unless asked; whether the society is providing enough protections for everyone both as to equal rights and as to safe space; critique of a particular expression or action from a public figure or organization, ISTM are distinct things that could be subjects of discussion in the appropriate forums under the extant rules. As could be IMO informational Q & A that is actually that and not thinly or thickly or un-disguised JAQ.
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/262 "2020-12-08T00:30:16Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> I think the 5 points from **Troutman** that I quoted, and what you wrote that I replied to overlap.
I don’t want to come across as pedantic, but I think it’s important to do a brief test on proposed rules.
Let’s say I write a topic in GD titled “We should segregate bathrooms by gender assigned at birth” (note that I would not actually make this topic). In the topic, I acknowledge that some people identify as transgender. I never distinguish between transmen and men, or transwomen and women (as a matter of terminology). I never imply that identifying as transgender is a result of mental illness. I never intentionally misgender any person, public or peer. But I still argue that it is _wrong_ to let people assigned male at birth share the same washroom as people assigned female at birth.
Will my topic conflict with your new rules? Are you comfortable with your answer to that question?
~Max
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/263 "2020-12-08T00:31:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> \*\*\* Transgender people exist\*\*
> \*\*\* Being transgender is not a mental illness\*\*
> \*\*\* The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.\*\*
> \*\*\* Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting.\*\*
> \*\*\* Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash)\*\*
The first on that list is not debatable, and while I agree with the others myself I think if you want to educate you have to be able to engage with people who are reachable who, nonetheless, don’t agree or don’t know that “being transgender is not a mental illness” or “the term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men”. I think those positions are _wrong_ but if the discussion can remain civil I’m willing to participate - although yes, in some instances that is a huge “if”. We certainly won’t be able to possibly change minds if we are unwilling to talk to such people (even if we do, there’s no guarantee of success).
The last two are impolite (in the extreme!) and can simply be stated to be part of the courtesy rules of the board. Whether you agree with the notion or not, it’s part of this forum’s culture and etiquette to use the preferred pronouns of other posters. Delibrate and repeated misgendering is not acceptable.
(As a woman who has often been mistaken for a man on line I get the distinction between deliberate and accidental - I would not want someone punished for an honest mistake. In fact, I generally don’t care and don’t bother to correct such mistakes unless my gender is relevant to the conversation but that’s me - and if someone questioned my gender or refused to refer to me as a female human being _when corrected_ even I would take offense. For someone trans gender it goes way beyond that into tremendously painful.)
---
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/264 "2020-12-08T00:34:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> I think those positions are _wrong_ but if the discussion can remain civil I’m willing to participate - although yes, in some instances that is a huge “if”. We certainly won’t be able to possibly change minds if we are unwilling to talk to such people (even if we do, there’s no guarantee of success).
>
> …
>
> (As a woman who has often been mistaken for a man on line
I see your point, but I have my doubts about “civil”.
As a male who has been mistaken for a woman on line…(no seriously, many times)
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/265 "2020-12-08T00:37:37Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I don’t want to come across as pedantic, but […]
Well, I guess that’s not accurate. I did make the post after all.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/266 "2020-12-08T00:41:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> **puzzlegal** seem to agree that misgendering is inappropriate, … Those two mods and **raventhief** have indicated that they want to be more inclusive to transgender members, but I don’t think they’ve come down on either side of the question when it comes to a topic ban.
Correct, I have not come down on a side. I am still listening.
On the one hand, i know that these debates are very tiring and can be stressful to trans people, who include several of my friends, including a couple of fairly close friends.
On the other hand, I feel like this is not a “settled” issue in the field of public discussion, and there are a great many people of good will who are still unclear on a lot of the issues. I also believe that I have helped make the world a slightly better place for trans people in the future by politely and repeatedly arguing trans issues in other public discussion forums that have fewer actual trans people to speak up. I’m sure I haven’t gotten it completely right – but despite that, I HAVE seen people shift their positions, and I am vain enough to think my arguments helped. So I see some value in discussion. Is that enough value to make up for the discomfort the discussion causes to trans posters? I honestly don’t know.
And on the gripping hand, I don’t moderate great debates or P&E. And that’s where most of the vitriol is likely to happen. (or possibly the pit, I suppose.)
I would agree that deliberately misgendering people is being a jerk, and doing so to a poster here is an aggressive act that should not be tolerated by the board. Those both seem like easy calls. (I have seen a troll pretend to be trans, by the way, but he was obviously trolling in other ways, and there was no need to confront him on his claim. And hey, maybe he was a real, self-hating trans person who liked to troll. Doesn’t matter.) But I’m not certain where I come down on the rest of the issue.
---
### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/267 "2020-12-08T00:42:31Z")
My gut feeling is that subject is a swipe at Trans people. Couched with the term “by gender assigned at birth”. But this is why I’m not quite sure of anything and thank you for asking the question here and now.
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/268 "2020-12-08T00:43:51Z")
Oh, that’s definitely a swipe at trans people. But it’s also a subject of active legislation, and as such, it seems like it’s something that one ought to be able to argue.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/269 "2020-12-08T00:47:56Z")
It’s _definitely_ a swipe at transgender people. That topic is equivalent to “let’s ignore transgender identity when it comes to bathrooms”, but written so as to accommodate all of your rules.
I brought it up because I feel like your rules do not adequately protect what you want them to. Namely they don’t cover transphobia, only impolite transphobia and one particular theory about it being a mental illness.
~Max
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/270 "2020-12-08T00:48:03Z")
I think we have reached a state as a nation (yes, I’m going to be US centric in this post) where we recognize that “Black” and “White” are pretty arbitrary biologically, and that “scientific racism” is bad science. I think we have reached the point where it’s widely understood that gay people aren’t mentally ill sexual predators. I don’t think either of those should be up for debate. But have we reached a consensus that transwomen are women? Sadly, we haven’t. Does it help to require that sort of assumption on the board? I don’t think that changes hearts and minds. It does make for a more peaceful and safer environment for transpeople to debate other topics, however.
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/271 "2020-12-08T00:50:45Z")
I’m going to step back and listen some more. But I assume the mods will be discussing this. While I think this public discussion has been very helpful, if anyone wants to PM me, I promise to bring your concerns to the table in that upcoming discussion.
---
### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/272 "2020-12-08T00:51:31Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> Oh, that’s definitely a swipe at trans people. But it’s also a subject of active legislation, and as such, it seems like it’s something that one ought to be able to argue.
I think a debate about bathroom use could be allowed. But I argue that the debate would cross the line when the reason becomes “…because they aren’t real women.” If someone wants to argue for why trans women shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s bathroom, let them make that in a non-insulting way.
No one’s mind is being changed by some tautological argument based on the definition of “woman.” Force people to explain what their real concern is, and maybe it becomes a learning moment.
---
### Author:  [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/273 "2020-12-08T00:53:36Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#):
>
> There have been countless threads about the treatment of women on these boards. I just found one as recently as 2018.
Could you link to two or three of those, please? Preferably threads several years apart.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/274 "2020-12-08T01:06:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> > [@Max\_S](#):
> >
> > I don’t want to come across as pedantic, but […]
>
> Well, I guess that’s not accurate. I did make the post after all.
>
> ~Max
Let’s take a quick pause from the thread to acknowledge that this is the most delightfully pedantic pair of posts in the history of the universe.
Okay, carry on.
---
### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/275 "2020-12-08T01:10:37Z")
I’m sure I missed some, this is just a quick search.
> **Links to previous ATMB topics on misogyny and sexism**
>
> 2009
> [What exactly is hate speech?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-hate-speech/515624)
>
> 2013
> [Misogyny on board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-on-board/655617)
> [What is Sexism?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853)
> [We have new rules regarding jokes about women?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-new-rules-regarding-jokes-about-women/657341)
> [Can we finally get some clarification on what's "misogynistic" and off-limits now?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-finally-get-some-clarification-on-whats-misogynistic-and-off-limits-now/657244)
>
> 2018
> [Misogynistic terms](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogynistic-terms/820610)
> [Misogyny on the SDMB, Sept. 2018 edition](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-on-the-sdmb-sept-2018-edition/821899)
> [My humble suggestion at fixing the misogyny stuff.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-humble-suggestion-at-fixing-the-misogyny-stuff/822017)
> [Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977)
> [The ongoing problem with misogyny on the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-problem-with-misogyny-on-the-sdmb/825395)
> [what's the "anti-misogyny policy"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-anti-misogyny-policy/826085)
>
> 2019
> [Misogyny and Moderation, again](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462)
> [Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again) - #327 by BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/327)
>
> 2020
> [Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words - #321 by Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/321)
> [Should we ban misogynism in the Pit?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329)
~Max
---
### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/276 "2020-12-08T02:11:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> But these four items should not be open for debate- either accept them or dont argue otherwise.
Thank you. This made it clearer for me.
---
### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/277 "2020-12-08T02:51:02Z")
Thanks @Max_S. I love it when people do my work for me.
---
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/278 "2020-12-08T03:11:54Z")
I think it is debatable that woman or man without an adjective includes trans-men or women. That is a huge change in linguistics and biological classification that is far from being universally accepted. I think more harm is done to movements by shutting down discussion by incorrect fiat.
I don’t think one can legitimately demand that another not differentiate between trans and cis.
---
### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/279 "2020-12-08T03:49:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> these four items
pssst – you (and others) are listing five items.
(I’m OK with those five, FWIW. I think that including a link or links to education would be a good idea.)
---
### Author:  [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/280 "2020-12-08T03:57:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I’m sure I missed some, this is just a quick search.
>
> > **Links to previous ATMB topics on misogyny and sexism**
> >
> > 2009
> > [What exactly is hate speech?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-exactly-is-hate-speech/515624)
> >
> > 2013
> > [Misogyny on board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-on-board/655617)
> > [What is Sexism?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-sexism/655853)
> > [We have new rules regarding jokes about women?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-have-new-rules-regarding-jokes-about-women/657341)
> > [Can we finally get some clarification on what's "misogynistic" and off-limits now?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-we-finally-get-some-clarification-on-whats-misogynistic-and-off-limits-now/657244)
> >
> > 2018
> > [Misogynistic terms](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogynistic-terms/820610)
> > [Misogyny on the SDMB, Sept. 2018 edition](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-on-the-sdmb-sept-2018-edition/821899)
> > [My humble suggestion at fixing the misogyny stuff.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-humble-suggestion-at-fixing-the-misogyny-stuff/822017)
> > [Disputation and The Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/disputation-and-the-straight-dope-message-board/843977)
> > [The ongoing problem with misogyny on the SDMB](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-problem-with-misogyny-on-the-sdmb/825395)
> > [what's the "anti-misogyny policy"?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-anti-misogyny-policy/826085)
> >
> > 2019
> > [Misogyny and Moderation, again](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462)
> > [Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again) - #327 by BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/327)
> >
> > 2020
> > [Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words - #321 by Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/321)
> > [Should we ban misogynism in the Pit?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-ban-misogynism-in-the-pit/855329)
>
> ~Max
Thank you!
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