# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 15
### Author:  [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/281 "2020-12-08T03:59:26Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> I think it is debatable that woman or man without an adjective includes trans-men or women. That is a huge change in linguistics and biological classification that is far from being universally accepted. I think more harm is done to movements by shutting down discussion by incorrect fiat.
>
> I don’t think one can legitimately demand that another not differentiate between trans and cis.
It depends on context. Would you insist on calling a transwoman you met socially or were chatting/emailing/threading with, He/Him? If yes, I think you’re a jerk. Do you want to be able to distinguish between a trans man/woman and cis in a conversation like this thread we’re in? Fine, we’ve been doing so in this thread and it seems fine. Well, fine-ish, since we’re debating board rules.
I think the point is being careful about telling someone their claimed gender is bullshit. “You’re not _really_ a woman.” Do not do this. But trying to discuss that trans people exist should be okay.
Disclaimer: I don’t entirely understand any of this, but it seems like basic politeness to avoid being a dick and not judge people.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/282 "2020-12-08T04:42:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> But have we reached a consensus that transwomen are women? Sadly, we haven’t. Does it help to require that sort of assumption on the board? I don’t think that changes hearts and minds. It does make for a more peaceful and safer environment for transpeople to debate other topics, however.
I’m actually not sure I agree. I mean, there are definitely people who hold that trans women aren’t women. But then I consider things like how quickly Elliot Page’s (Juno, Kitty Pride, Vanya Hardgrieves) online bio was changed to use his new name. Not misgendering trans people seems the rule for most publications, online or off, not the exception.
The two large groups that seem to be holdouts are (1) the ones who are also holdouts on other forms of bigotry and (2) the gender critical feminists, who are generally called “trans exclusionary radical feminists” by other feminists.
And even the latter seem to believe they are fighting some sort of existing consensus. Their big fear seems to be that people are too accepting that trans women are women. They’re even willing to ally with anti-feminists because they see the trans threat as so large.
Sure, fewer people accept that trans women are women (and the rest) than accept that being gay is okay. But the consensus still seems pretty wide. It’s not this huge open question, even socially.
Even Reddit seems to have started cracking down on this stuff. The reason may have more to do with profit, but even that’s telling you something: being transphobic is starting to be advertiser unfriendly.
(None of this should be construed to mean that transphobia doesn’t exist, or isn’t commonly faced by trans folk. Or even that there aren’t LGB people who want to exclude the T [though their numbers are decreasing rapidly, it seems to me].)
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/283 "2020-12-08T04:55:45Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> Even Reddit seems to have started cracking down on this stuff. The reason may have more to do with profit, but even that’s telling you something: being transphobic is starting to be advertiser unfriendly
That’s very interesting. And news to me. That’s an excellent sign. Can you point to any examples?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/284 "2020-12-08T05:59:59Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> If the debate is just closed, then those people will just leave and not change their mind.
The part you’re seemingly taking as assumed here is that that’s a bad thing, in a way that the loss of trans posters over the same issue _isn’t_.
Me, I don’t see privileging the easily confused over the actually hurt as a good thing.
And they’re welcome to read the proposed explanatory thread for _why_ debate is closed. I think that thread would be a good idea.
> [@filmore](#):
>
> I don’t necessarily consider someone not understanding this point as being the same thing as that person being transphobic.
It is, though. It undermines the fundamental meaning of being trans for many trans people.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/285 "2020-12-08T06:01:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> clamp down in other forums (except Cafe Society) on blatant sexim/ misogyny.
Why would sexism or misogyny be OK in the Cafe?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/286 "2020-12-08T06:04:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I’m asking if you consider it unacceptable for members to debate whether transgender identities are _valid_ .
This damn well _should_ be unacceptable.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/287 "2020-12-08T06:08:37Z")
See, look, if you have a thread like “Who is hotter, MaryAnn or Ginger?” that is just a fun thread, since it is about celebrities, part of their job is trying to be attractive or sexy. So, it is just admiring how well they play their part. Of course, you cant get too gross.
But if someone posts elsewhere “Yeah, that …(fill in name of attractive person in the news ) makes me all hot and bothered”- then that is being a sexist pig.
It is perfectly OK to say a celebrity is sexy- since that is part of their resume in many cases.
So what could be sexism and misogyny in GD can be OK in CS, since the venues are different.
Everything in it’s place and a place for everything.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/288 "2020-12-08T06:08:45Z")
All of these are great threads to still have, yes. But this one :
> [@JRDelirious](#):
>
> whether the society is providing enough protections for everyone both as to equal rights and as to safe space
would need to be heavily modded to direct it away from the “pervert in the women’s toilet” wildly exaggerated boogeyman-type clusterfuck that the Rowling thread became.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/289 "2020-12-08T06:12:17Z")
I don’t agree that “Who is hotter” threads should be acceptable any more, but I realise I’m in a minority there and don’t fight the tide.
But then, if in that case it’s commonly considered that they _aren’t_ sexism, then sexism isn’t given a pass in the Cafe. But I do understand what you were saying better now.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/290 "2020-12-08T07:30:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I think everyone agrees with them except maybe **DemonTree** who [has argued against](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/927272/70) banning misgendering.
I want to reiterate that I’m in favour of banning misgendering of posters and having at least a strong presumption against misgendering anyone else.
I’m opposed to a ban on linking to resources that ‘misgender’, because that would prevent some evidence being seen, and some people’s stories can’t be told. Would that be covered in the ban? I realise this could be abused, but it’s possible to moderate linking things not germane to the topic and just intended to insult, while not banning important information because of the way it’s presented.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/291 "2020-12-08T07:57:05Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Let’s say I write a topic in GD titled “We should segregate bathrooms by gender assigned at birth” (note that I would not actually make this topic). In the topic, I acknowledge that some people identify as transgender. I never distinguish between transmen and men, or transwomen and women (as a matter of terminology). I never imply that identifying as transgender is a result of mental illness. I never intentionally misgender any person, public or peer. But I still argue that it is _wrong_ to let people assigned male at birth share the same washroom as people assigned female at birth.
If you think this should be against the rules then what kind of discussion _do_ you intend to allow?
> [@BigT](#):
>
> The two large groups that seem to be holdouts are (1) the ones who are also holdouts on other forms of bigotry and (2) the gender critical feminists, who are generally called “trans exclusionary radical feminists” by other feminists.
Those are small groups. The big group is people who don’t know or care very much about the topic, want to be polite but are still operating based on old fashioned common sense.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/292 "2020-12-08T08:51:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> I’m opposed to a ban on linking to resources that ‘misgender’, because that would prevent some evidence being seen, and some people’s stories can’t be told.[…]I realise this could be abused
I think it’s not a question of “_could_ be abused”, as you put it, but “_will_ be abused”. Why leave that doorway open?
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> not banning important information
What “important information” would _only_ be contained in a source that misgenders, that isn’t also available elsewhere? Certainly neither any scientific nor any newsworthy information.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/293 "2020-12-08T08:52:11Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> The big group is people who don’t know or care very much about the topic,
What is this group doing in trans threads?
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/294 "2020-12-08T09:41:08Z")
> [@TroutMan](#):
>
> I think a debate about bathroom use could be allowed. But I argue that the debate would cross the line when the reason becomes “…because they aren’t real women.” If someone wants to argue for why trans women shouldn’t be allowed in the women’s bathroom, let them make that in a non-insulting way.
We’ve actually had threads on that. [This one, for example.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cis-women-do-you-have-an-issue-with-trans-women-whove-not-had-srs-in-the-womens-room/667327) I’d say it’s an example of how such a discussion should be done.
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### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/295 "2020-12-08T11:23:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> What “important information” would _only_ be contained in a source that misgenders, that isn’t also available elsewhere? Certainly neither any scientific nor any newsworthy information.
@What_Exit, can I/should I link to examples? I don’t want to derail the thread. Or can we assume the mods would use their judgement on whether a link is relevant or not?
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> What is this group doing in trans threads?
Trying to find out why things are changing so fast?
This isn’t my argument though. I think we should allow respectful debate because it’s the right thing to do. There is no reason to allow harassment or intentional rudeness, but debate is how we discover the truth and better inform ourselves and others. The ‘were things better in the past’ thread showed that there are misconceptions even among well educated Dopers.
I know the JKR thread was not respectful, but I think the moderators should be trying to encourage better debate, not ending it entirely.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/296 "2020-12-08T12:46:11Z")
Links would be OK, but lets be careful of not going down a side issue that derails this threads.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/297 "2020-12-08T13:21:34Z")
> [@DemonTree](#):
>
> Trying to find out why things are changing so fast?
Then they do care about the topic, and the onus _is on them_ to educate themselves before diving into debate, not expect to be excused their ignorance.
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### Author:  [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/298 "2020-12-08T13:33:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> This issue should simply not be debated.
Exactly. Trying to tell someone who they are based on personal ideas and beliefs is the height of narrow minded prejudice and arrogance.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/299 "2020-12-08T13:40:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Then they do care about the topic, and the onus _is on them_ to educate themselves before diving into debate, not expect to be excused their ignorance.
Are ignorance and full agreement the only choices available to people of good conscience, i.e. those who do not intentionally mis-gender or discriminate but have “educated themselves” and found genuine concerns around some elements of public or health policy related to trans issues?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/300 "2020-12-08T13:46:28Z")
**DT** was talking _specifically_ about ignorant people, so that’s what I addressed.
If you have something else you want to talk about, try not tacking it onto a separate conversation as an irrelevance, please.
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