# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 16
### Author:  [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/301 "2020-12-08T13:50:01Z")
I’d be interested to see your answer to that question, too.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/302 "2020-12-08T13:53:37Z")
That’s fine, but I would prefer it gets asked as its own good-faith question, rather than a (mistaken) accusation of committing the excluded middle fallacy in a different conversation that was specifically at one end of the continuum. Fruit of the poison tree and all that.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/303 "2020-12-08T14:19:37Z")
Believe it or not, I don’t hang on every word of every post in this or any other thread. I asked a question I thought worth asking in the greater context of the OP, and I appreciate a response that doesn’t insinuate the questions was asked in bad faith.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/304 "2020-12-08T15:12:29Z")
And I prefer questions that don’t just _assume_ obvious logical fallacies on my part as their starting premise, and that aren’t tacked onto completely separate conversation threads. You first. I’m happy to answer a respectful rephrased question.
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/305 "2020-12-08T15:22:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> Are ignorance and full agreement the only choices available to people of good conscience, i.e. those who do not intentionally mis-gender or discriminate but have “educated themselves” and found genuine concerns around some elements of public or health policy related to trans issues?
No, there’s also blatant transphobic hatred on the menu.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/306 "2020-12-08T15:24:04Z")
Is it allowed for a poster to avoid the controversy by not using pronouns, but just names? i.e., rather than name hypothetical transgender “Mikayla” as a he or a she, just say Mikayla - as in, “Mikayla couldn’t decide whether Mikayla wanted to get coffee that afternoon or not.”
Grammatically awkward, but avoids offending either camp.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/307 "2020-12-08T15:28:58Z")
That’s not “avoiding the controversy”, that’s deliberately not using someone’s chosen pronouns, and very much taking a side. IMO, a jerkish side.
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/308 "2020-12-08T15:29:06Z")
One could do so if, for example, one wanted to he a huge asshole about it.
I think that if you use pronouns normally for most posters, but do what you described for trans posters - and persist once said poster tells you what their preferred pronouns are - you are Being A Jerk.
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### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/309 "2020-12-08T15:29:45Z")
First, why would it not be allowed?
Second, why do we need to prioritize the risk of offending bigots?
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/310 "2020-12-08T15:42:50Z")
I agree.
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/311 "2020-12-08T16:09:15Z")
What about using gender neutral pronouns which the person has not explicitly say they prefer? Some people independently refer to other people using gender neutral pronouns like zim, sie, em and ver even though the other person has not explicitly stated that those pronouns apply to them. For example, Page’s announcement listed he/they as the preferred pronouns. Are forms those pronouns the only acceptable pronouns to use? Can someone say “Page auditioned for the part and **zie** got it” instead of “…he/they got it”? And it is acceptable for me to admonish someone for using gender neutral pronouns for me rather than the gender specific ones I prefer?
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/312 "2020-12-08T16:14:11Z")
Context matters. If you use “they” for everyone on the internet, that’s one thing. If you use “he” or “she” 95% of the time, but when a poster says that they are Trans and prefer She/Her, and you insist on calling that one trans poster (and no one else) “they”, that’s pretty jerky.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/313 "2020-12-08T16:17:04Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> Are forms those pronouns the only acceptable pronouns to use?
IMO? Yes. Anything else is just plain rude.
> [@filmore](#):
>
> And it is acceptable for me to admonish someone for using gender neutral pronouns for me rather than the gender specific ones I prefer?
Again IMO - yes, I think so.
It’s fine (if idiosyncratic and likely confusing at first) for someone to use their own made-up pronouns for people where there’s no known preference. But when they know the preference, they shouldn’t. Even if they’re using their neuter pronouns with what they consider good intentions.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/314 "2020-12-08T16:18:59Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> Can someone say “Page auditioned for the part and **zie** got it” instead of “…he/they got it”? And it is acceptable for me to admonish someone for using gender neutral pronouns for me rather than the gender specific ones I prefer?
I think it would be reasonable to ask the poster about why they insist on using their own pronouns instead of the ones for which a clear preference was stated. If you told me your name was **filmore** and I insisted on calling you **fil** after you clearly told me you preferred I use your proper name, I think that you could reasonably admonish me for refusing to honor your wishes, or at least reasonably assume I refuse to do so as a sign of disrespect.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/315 "2020-12-08T16:46:00Z")
That’s ridiculous. Folks aren’t compelled to have their perception of reality forced to meet someone else’s. Calling someone by their chosen name is surely fair enough.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/316 "2020-12-08T16:50:49Z")
Look, having to use words like zim and such is not going to work. It’s like Latinx. Just because some in the woke community think it’s a word doesn’t make it compulsory for anyone else to use it. Or capitalizing some adjectives such as black. You can’t dictate language like that and expect compliance.
Claiming the refusal to do so is so-called jerkitude does not make it so.
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/317 "2020-12-08T16:51:46Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> Look, having to use words like zim and such is not going to work.
I didn’t tell you to use words like ‘zim’. Did you read the post you replied to or just turn to one of your go-to strawmen to attack?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/318 "2020-12-08T16:53:31Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> Calling someone by their chosen name is surely fair enough.
No, it’d be jerkish when doing it in some silly pronoun version of “I’m Not Touching You”…it’d just be passive-aggressive bullshit.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/319 "2020-12-08T16:55:51Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> Or capitalizing some adjectives such as black. You can’t dictate language like that and expect compliance.
You can if you’re the AP.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/320 "2020-12-08T17:03:18Z")
It’s not a strawman. If someone demands to be referred to as a word such as zim and I prefer to use the full name that’s fine. I am respectful, most of the time, when there is no reason not to be. I just have no compulsion to use language I choose not to.
Transgenderism is going to be a political and medical debate for quite awhile regardless of hurt feelings. There is no obligation in society or anywhere else that one’s feelings must be spared discomfort. Every contentious issue is highly personal to someone.
For the most part, I stay out of transgender discussions with the rare exception of participation in sport. My personal belief is each person’s brain is wired the way it is and people should for the most part be accepted and respected for who they are. When it comes to categorization I think that language and biology need to have specific meanings to have utility and to prevent Humpty-Dumptyism.
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