# Do the existing rules prohibit people from debating the gender of people who identify as transgender?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272
**Category:** About This Message Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272 "2020-12-05T05:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 17
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/321 "2020-12-08T17:04:26Z")
I don’t work for the AP. You pay my bills I’m pretty flexible.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/322 "2020-12-08T17:06:02Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Context matters. If you use “they” for everyone on the internet, that’s one thing. If you use “he” or “she” 95% of the time, but when a poster says that they are Trans and prefer She/Her, and you insist on calling that one trans poster (and no one else) “they”, that’s pretty jerky.
> [@octopus](#):
>
> It’s not a strawman. If someone demands to be referred to as a word such as zim and I prefer to use the full name that’s fine. I am respectful, most of the time, when there is no reason not to be. I just have no compulsion to use language I choose not to.
The benefit of a written format is that we can go back up and see exactly what I said.
---
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/323 "2020-12-08T17:11:21Z")
My quote-fu is weak but I wasn’t responding only to your sentiments.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/324 "2020-12-08T17:35:51Z")
So do you agree or disagree that a poster who calls everyone “he” or “she” in 95% of cases, but if another says “I am trans and identify as female, I use she/her pronouns” then the first poster is a jerk if they insist on referring to that poster only as “they” rather than “she”?
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/325 "2020-12-08T17:51:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Is it allowed for a poster to avoid the controversy by not using pronouns, but just names? i.e., rather than name hypothetical transgender “Mikayla” as a he or a she, just say Mikayla - as in, “Mikayla couldn’t decide whether Mikayla wanted to get coffee that afternoon or not.”
>
> Grammatically awkward, but avoids offending either camp.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@octopus](#):
> >
> > Calling someone by their chosen name is surely fair enough.
>
> No, it’d be jerkish when doing it in some silly pronoun version of “I’m Not Touching You”…it’d just be passive-aggressive bullshit.
You know… In a written format like this board, I suppose it’s reasonable to ask people to take the time to use the correct pronouns. But in real life, talking with or about friends, I often use a name for a trans person when I would use a pronoun for a cis person with an obvious gender. It seems safer than having the wrong pronoun fall out of my mouth. And… yeah, maybe some of you are better at implementation than I am, but it’s not that rare for the wrong word to fall out of my mouth in any context, and this is a situation where I risk really offending someone I care about.
I think my friend put up with me because I’m old and I’m trying.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/326 "2020-12-08T17:55:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> I think my friend put up with me because I’m old and I’m trying.
This is a huge key point. If you misgender someone by accident (which I have done plenty of times), someone will correct you, you can apologize, and move on with your life.
The problem is when a certain vocal minority instead screams “I DON’T HAVE TO RESPECT YOU AS A PERSON AND YOU CANNOT MAKE ME”.
---
### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/327 "2020-12-08T18:03:28Z")
Accidents happen. And I don’t think we need concern ourselves with anything but the written word on this board, for the purposes of _this_ thread.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/328 "2020-12-08T18:33:25Z")
Just to follow this pronoun hijack for a moment–
I fully support policies that support transpeople’s identities and attempts to be accepted in society and fight discrimination and its effects, the same as any group that has been discriminated against.
However, this whole issue highlights to me the utter ridiculousness of grammatical gender in English and other languages. Some people on the boards have mocked me for doing this, but whenever I can and remember to, I publicly use non-gendered pronouns (E, es, em, emself) not just for transgender people, but for everyone.
I think eliminating grammatical gender wouldn’t just help transgender people, but would be good for all of us and for language in general.
---
### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/329 "2020-12-08T18:44:25Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Context matters. If you use “they” for everyone on the internet, that’s one thing. If you use “he” or “she” 95% of the time, but when a poster says that they are Trans and prefer She/Her, and you insist on calling that one trans poster (and no one else) “they”, that’s pretty jerky
Agreeing with this; but noting that I very often use “they” on these boards and in similar situations because I can’t remember people’s genders any more than I can remember where they’re located (side hijack, people, please do add location to your profile so it shows at your atavar, sometimes it adds really useful context.)
I don’t know whether these boards can be set up so that those to whom it matters can make their pronouns visible – I have seen that on some other boards.
> [@filmore](#):
>
> it is acceptable for me to admonish someone for using gender neutral pronouns for me rather than the gender specific ones I prefer?
I would say that if they’ve got reason to know which ones you prefer, then yes. If they don’t, then you can mention it but “admonish” is too strong. Especially on a message board: even if you have an apparently gendered online name and even if you’ve mentioned it in some previous post, the person misgendering you may not have read or may have forgotten that post, and names can be misleading: they may be trying to be polite. But even in person, in some social circles use of the gender neutral may be considered more polite unless other instructions have been given.
If there’s reason to think that the person knows you prefer gender specific pronouns for yourself, and they’re deliberately using neutral ones instead, then yes I’d say you can get legitimately ticked off at that.
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/330 "2020-12-08T18:46:01Z")
I’m rooting for the honorific, “Mx”, to catch on, for the same reasons.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/331 "2020-12-08T18:59:06Z")
I think we should just drop honorifics altogether. All of them. Especially for ones relating to public offices. Just using someone’s name should be honorific enough.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/332 "2020-12-08T19:02:05Z")
+1. There is no way for someone to lose my respect faster than insisting that someone calling them by their name instead of a honorific is “disrespectful”.
---
### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/333 "2020-12-08T19:03:32Z")
It’s marginal. But since celebrities push and want to be considered sexy, then is is mostly recognizing their efforts.
---
### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/334 "2020-12-08T19:07:07Z")
E, es, em, emself?
There are literally billions of people, including more than 1.2 billion English Speaking persons, who won’t understand what you’re talking about.
Using made up words does not facilitate communication.
---
### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/335 "2020-12-08T19:15:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> Using made up words does not facilitate communication
As opposed to the rest of the Queen’s English, which God gave to Moses at the top of Mount Sinai and which all red-blooded Americans have used ever since.
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/336 "2020-12-08T19:24:49Z")
> [@Babale](#):
>
> +1. There is no way for someone to lose my respect faster than insisting that someone calling them by their name instead of a honorific is “disrespectful”.
I’m not so bothered by people who choose to go by titles so much as I’m bothered by a third person instructing me that I need to use a title with someone else’s name. Back off, Nosy Nellie.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/337 "2020-12-08T19:26:38Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> Using made up words does not facilitate communication.
#AllWordsAreMadeUp
---
### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/338 "2020-12-08T19:30:11Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> Using made up words does not facilitate communication.
Like internet, email, blog, television, telephone, telegraph?
---
### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/339 "2020-12-08T19:39:26Z")
Meh, it’s a perfectly cromulent argument.
---
### Author:  [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272/340 "2020-12-08T19:43:18Z")
Sorry, are you guys defending random people making up their own words and just going ahead and using them in casual conversation?
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272.md?page=16)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-the-existing-rules-prohibit-people-from-debating-the-gender-of-people-who-identify-as-transgender/927272.md?page=18)